Kicking Off In Tottenham

[ViolentPanda]

Popular opinion in Croydon area seems simple: either the cops deal with it or the residents will.
It seems many locals have elected to arm themselves with whatever they have to defend their streets.
I would be very, very surprised if there were not some serious casualties and even more deaths, if the scenes from last night are attempted to be repeated there tonight.

See, I don't see anything innately wrong with community self-defence, stopping "outsiders" invading your street to cause havoc, but I do see a difference between community self-defence, and those "outsiders" going on the rob/looting the town centre/shopping area, especially as you can bet the old bill will be looking after the business sector, not the residential sector. As long as people don't engage in vigilantism, then they're only proposing to do what the police have very obviously been disinclined to engage with.

 

[Barking_Mad]

From the Guardian...

Jasmine Coleman has been talking to people who live either along or near Kingland High Street in Dalston, where Turkish and Kurdish shopkeepers were out in force last night.
Many are grateful to the workers around here and thank them for stopping the spread of violence from nearby Mare Street and Dalston Junction.
Debbie Mumdy, 41, who lives in Shacklewell Lane where a bus was set alight last night, said:

Most of the residents are really relieved that the Turkish community has been protecting the area. I think it was the same situation in Stoke Newington. It's thanks to these guys that Kingsland High Street wasn't attacked."

And Nick Smith, chairman of a charity fundraising business based near Dalston Junction, said:

It's brilliant. These guys are obviously going to keep the trouble down. I don't think this particular area is going to be attacked as a result."

But a 23-year-old council worker, who had just been evacuated from Hackney town hall due to fears of further rioting, said he was concerned this sort of defence would increase tensions between communities:

It is just a response from people who feel this is completely lawless and I completely understand why people are coming out to defend their businesses - but I agree with the idea that it is just going to make matters worse. I would hate to see this turn into a generational or racial battle."

 

[Streathamite]

I do not believe this is true. There could have been hundreds of skulls cracked last night - there were not. The riots still occurred.

agreed, but my contention is that things would get even worse.
In fact, I think this is mild, so far, compared with what could happen.

 

[laptop]

This bloke in croydon who was shot and has just died - who shot him? Gang stuff? OB?

Surprising lack of news... he was "sitting in a car" says the Standard...

First guess: score-settling.

 

[pk]

You seem to be using "rioting" and "looting" interchangeably, but the general pattern seems to be (going on past looting "sprees") that head-cracking of looters is more effective at deterrence than head-cracking of people with a grievance (imagined or real), so it may well depend on who you're talking about as to how effective any skull-cracking would be.

I think we can safely say most of these cunts are as materialistic in their choice of loot as any banker.

I would not object to hearing the sound of their broken bones any more than those of fatcat banking thieves.

 

[rover07]

I cant see workers at Tescos or Currys putting themselves in the firing line for the sake of a shop.

 

[pk]

Surprising lack of news... he was "sitting in a car" says the Standard...

First guess: score-settling.

Second guess - carjacking gone wrong.

 

[belboid]

I think we can safely say most of these cunts are as materialistic in their choice of loot as any banker.

bankers were just after some new trainers and a flatscreen tv? I don't think so

 

[pk]

bankers were just after some new trainers and a flatscreen tv? I don't think so

And the rest. Guess you didn't see the jewellery shops and charity shops being fucked over.
These cunts are just as greedy and immoral as any of the bankers.

 

[laptop]

Second guess - carjacking gone wrong.

Later reports stressing that he was in the car "when police found him" - not necessarily when shot. Your search term is "Warrington Road" Croydon.

 

[butchersapron]

Strathclyde police confirm a 16 year old in Glasgow has been detained on suspicion of attempting to incite a riot by a message on Facebook (@fieldproducer)

 

[trabant]

I cant see workers at Tescos or Currys putting themselves in the firing line for the sake of a shop.

I remember seeing a picture of what looked like a curry's employee still wearing her uniform being arrested for looting her employer...

 

[butchersapron]

These extra 10 000 or whatever it is coppers- they're going to be in streets they don't know, pumped up by fear they'll get hacked to death - what could go wrong?

 

[Mr.Bishie]

These extra 10 000 or whatever it is coppers- they're going to be in streets they don't know, pumped up by fear they'll get hacked to death - what could go wrong?

Arm them with RCG's!

 

[Bernie Gunther]

These extra 10 000 or whatever it is coppers- they're going to be in streets they don't know, pumped up by fear they'll get hacked to death - what could go wrong?

There also seems to be a view that if the police would only 'get tough' that they'll drive said youth off the street. Now if it was a policial protest focussed on a specific location, that might work.

I'm not sure it'll work against this sort of networked swarm though ... although they might succeeed in handing out a number of savage examplary beatings that will warm the shrivelled hearts of Daily Mail readers.

 

[butchersapron]

There also seems to be a view that if the police would only 'get tough' that they'll drive said youth off the street. Now if it was a policial protest focussed on a specific location, that might work.

I'm not sure it'll work against this sort of networked swarm though ... although they might succeeed in handing out a number of savage examplary beatings that will warm the shrivelled hearts of Daily Mail readers.

That would drive it to the next level. If they come out swinging they might win for a few rounds, but by midnight they'll be dead on the stool - with no towel to be thrown.

 

[ViolentPanda]

These extra 10 000 or whatever it is coppers- they're going to be in streets they don't know, pumped up by fear they'll get hacked to death - what could go wrong?

Nothing. It'll go as smoothly as policing the Miner's Strike and Wapping did, you'll see!

 

[Paris Garters]

I'm not sure that the thinking regarding the blockading of the West End is necessarily about "wealthy areas" being protected vis-a-vis the residents. At this time of the year the West End is jam packed with tourists, and dense with high-value targets. Both the primary and secondary financial impacts of a rampage through the heart of town would be astronomical, and with limited resources, it's likely a more efficient use of manpower to protect a single high-value and obvious target, than it is to chase these chaps around countless outlying High Streets.

I wasn't necessarily thinking in terms of residents. It does indeed make sense interms of strategy; particularly if your primary aim is to protect that which is of high economic value and capital, rather than ordinary more disposable people and property. The point I was trying to make is one of priority.

And they've had days to sort their shit out. They've sprung all these extra police for tonight - which proves that it's not about the force being stretched to it's maximum - and I'm thinking they could have done that on sunday. They were warning Enfield at 2pm - that's 6 hours til nightfall. Everything I've seen and heard suggests that they've been sitting on their hands.

e2a spelling error

 

[Pickman's model]

How about a simple one, for a simpleton like you... what are the oh-so uber-intelligent so-called left wing doing in solidarity with working class people who are victims of the thieving gangs of kids?

Or perhaps more immediate - do YOU have any plans to defend yourself?
Or does your right-on "all property is theft, comrade" mantra extend to these kids when they're kicking YOUR door in?

Oh dear. That's three questions.
I'm sure your remedial little brain will be unable to answer any of them properly, but perhaps someone less of a useless limp prick than you might attempt to explain the position of the left, for those here keen to see a more direct and even a military response to the looting.

it's interesting how you turn to images of sexual dysfunction when you're trying to have a pop at someone. it offers an interesting insight into you.

having nothing to do with the 'uber-intelligent so-called left wing' of which you witter, i don't know what they're doing in solidarity with working class people who are the victims of the thieving gangs of kids. you should ask people in that milieu rather than me.

i have no plans to defend myself as they are not required.

when proudhon talked about all property being theft, he had in mind more the means of production than someone's books or bed. so the question's founded on a false premise.

 

[Paris Garters]

I waded through three pages of people going 'yer mum' and calling each other cunts for that last post. Is there a thread somewhere that has less of this?

 

[Pickman's model]

I waded through three pages of people going 'yer mum' and calling each other cunts for that last post. Is there a thread somewhere that has less of this?

yes. but you won't find it here.

 

[Pickman's model]

I would not object to hearing the sound of their broken bones any more than those of fatcat banking thieves.

your fantasy of ultraviolence might play out with them breaking the bones in their feet stamping on your face.

 

[gunneradt]

looking forward to this evening

 

[Pickman's model]

looking forward to this evening

 

[Pickman's model]

 

[Streathamite]

There also seems to be a view that if the police would only 'get tough' that they'll drive said youth off the street. Now if it was a policial protest focussed on a specific location, that might work.

I'm not sure it'll work against this sort of networked swarm though ... although they might succeeed in handing out a number of savage examplary beatings that will warm the shrivelled hearts of Daily Mail readers.

I'm dead certain it won't work. What we've seen here is gangs of underclass youth who have both reached tipping point and have totally lost any fear or conditioned reflex to either respect the cops or play be the rules of a society that offers them diddly.
consequence; the police crack dopwn hard in one area, trouble springs up in at least 2 others.
And the worst thing of all of this is...i'm not surprised at any of it. for me, the riots were always simply a matter of 'when', not 'if'.

 

[gunneradt]

I'm dead certain it won't work. What we've seen here is gangs of underclass youth who have both reached tipping point and have totally lost any fear or conditioned reflex to either respect the cops or play be the rules of a society that offers them diddly.
consequence; the police crack dopwn hard in one area, trouble springs up in at least 2 others.
And the worst thing of all of this is...i'm not surprised at any of it. for me, the riots were always simply a matter of 'when', not 'if'.

no they havent - it's a group of lawless thugs who need a good hiding - and, if they got one, would run home to their mums like little cry babies. They have false bravery in numbers. They might think differently when a few get badly hurt.

 

[butchersapron]

Fer more horrible things that seeing gunneradt as last poster.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm dead certain it won't work. What we've seen here is gangs of underclass youth who have both reached tipping point and have totally lost any fear or conditioned reflex to either respect the cops or play be the rules of a society that offers them diddly.
consequence; the police crack dopwn hard in one area, trouble springs up in at least 2 others.
And the worst thing of all of this is...i'm not surprised at any of it. for me, the riots were always simply a matter of 'when', not 'if'.

the problem the police have - and it's a problem you can see on streets right now - is that they can neither disperse their officers in penny packets nor concentrate them with any chance of 'success'. about half two there were pairs of officers dotted along the kingsland road in dalston and at highbury there were a couple of btp. what fucking use will they be if something kicks off? equally, concentrating them is unlikely to work because of the number of flashpoints there may well be. it's not like a demo where everyone's in one place or in one part of london - people will be in disparate parts of the city and will be highly mobile. in addition, where people on demonstrations have been notably reticent about burning buildings down since march 1990, the people on the streets now show no such reluctance. but perhaps more importantly only a couple of thousand - perhaps 3,000 - of the cops on the streets tonight will be public order trained. the other 13,000 are there to make up the numbers.

looking more closely at the numbers, they will have to be divided into shifts: no point asking some flatfoot plod to do 12 hours straight. in other words, while 16,000 sounds a fuck of a lot, it will be something much nearer 8,000 about at any one time. this too brings with it a number of logistical difficulties: will the met have so many suits of riot gear? i don't think so. and for people dressing up in riot gear for the first time in years, if they do, practical problems like going to the toilet will arise.

when things are in this context, raising the stakes seems like a fucking stupid thing to do, which is probably why they'll do it. the police are already stretched to fuck and if a couple more places - glasgow or edinburgh, coventry, leeds, wherever - then the police will be fucked. so the police have to win this quickly. but if they go for plastic baton rounds or exemplary beatings then their opposition will be more angry - and there are tens of thousands of young people who'd likely come out at that point. what i'm wondering is if the rioters will have a proper crack at the west end. they've broken their fear of the police and it would seem the logical end point for a spree of looting. but if they remain in the suburbs and their local areas, their home advantage may give them the edge over an increasingly tired police force which through fatigue and through the introduction of inexperienced officers are likely to make substantial errors.

the police leadership is absolutely dire, though this is no new thing. victory's been handed on a plate to the rioters, if they only turn out and take it. cracking down hard with beatings or running vehicles through crowds or baton rounds is likely to inflame the situation and to lead to a death. and if the cops kill someone then there'll be hell to pay.

 

[Pickman's model]

Fer more horrible things that seeing gunneradt

*corrected for you*