Kicking Off In Tottenham

[Streathamite]

Sure, but proportionally speaking - tiny. Like I said before, I think some people are keen to lump a whole generation in with thse twats. And I don't think that that is correct or desirable.

except it's not, when put in the context of each individual community. A very wide cross-section of Tottenham w/c youth (and not-so-youth) took to the streets - as anyone could predict they would. ditto brixton and hackney, ditto stokes croft some time ago. those numbers ARE representative of community sentiment. All the mindless demonising of these youth as 'morons' cannot hide the very real tension, resentment and frustration out there. we are in fact lucky that there have not been bigger riots.

 

[Streathamite]

You're not worth it. You're just a piece of shit really. Thank God people as thick as you are in the minority.

run along, cretin, there's a good little neanderthal, go and wank over your copy of the police gazette.

 

[Streathamite]

This is Thatcher's legacy. This is what happens when you let an idiot like Maggie slash education spending in the 1980's.

This is Cameron's shit to deal with. Castrato Clegg can fuck off. Education was and still is as vital an industry as any manufacturing base. She killed it along with mining.

Yeah great work. Now look.

absolutely 100% correct

 

[faux pas]

run along, cretin, there's a good little neanderthal, go and wank over your copy of the police gazette.

Still haven't mastered a simple sentence, I see. What an unbelievably thick twat you are! LOL

 

[Garek]

IIRC, there are more British troops in NI than in Afghanistan.

Germany isn't it? noI numbers are rather low these days.

 

[Crispy]

Advice: If your post starts with the word "You" then consider just how much it adds to the actual topic at hand, and how much it adds to the weight of dick-fencing that swamps the topic at hand.

 

[ericjarvis]

The problem is; if I take your sub-daily mail, reactionary argument to its' logical conclusion, one is left with one overriding, unavoidable conclusion; the middle class youth of the home counties and of kensington etc are simply morally better than the working class youth of Tottenham, which is simply horseshit.
this is a social problem, not simply a law and order one. the solution is to provide facilities, opportunities and hope for a generation who have simply lost all faith in their society. 'Long custodial sentences' may appease the internet vigilantes amongst us, but it will do ZERo to solve Tottenham's problems, ditto Brixton and Hackney. ALL you will achieve by imposing such sentences is to criminalise and alienate an entire generation.

It's even easier (and cheaper) to make a start. ALL that Cameron needed to do today to massively defuse the situation was to say that any police officer found guilty of misconduct in the shooting of Mark Duggan would also face the full force of the law. He didn't. So basically all he's done is thrown down the gauntlet and tell the youth of the inner cities that in the UK the law is upheld by force and only applies to the working classes.

Which isn't to condone looting and so on, but just to point out that we are ruled by people who make the average teenage internet troll appear almost sentient.

 

[Streathamite]

Hold on though, some are, some aren't, you said that yourself. So what should be done immediately to stop the violence and looting?

Heavier policing? Let them get on with it?

It's all very well and noble seeking to understand the reasons behind the violence, but what about the people who aren't rioting who are being fucked by it?

What should the police do NOW?

tbh, the police have lost such cred, respect and authority with the youth - ESPECIALLY in Tottenham, for the reasons I've outlined passim - that anything they do is bound to be counter-productive. heavier policing will prolly just make things worse.
at some point, when all this shit is over, we REALLY need to clean up the utter mess that is the Met

 

[Streathamite]

It's even easier (and cheaper) to make a start. ALL that Cameron needed to do today to massively defuse the situation was to say that any police officer found guilty of misconduct in the shooting of Mark Duggan would also face the full force of the law. He didn't. So basically all he's done is thrown down the gauntlet and tell the youth of the inner cities that in the UK the law is upheld by force and only applies to the working classes.

Which isn't to condone looting and so on, but just to point out that we are ruled by people who make the average teenage internet troll appear almost sentient.

very good points eric - as ever.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I lived in 'poor' East London as a kid in multi-cultural Waltham Forest, people dealt with it, no youth centres in the late '70s/'80 and very little crime to be honest. Fuck all this shit, looting and the like, shitting on their own doorsteps is pathetic.

It's a far deeper problem that needs to be addressed, and I have no explanation or answer to it, but there are parts of London that are really fucked, and it's a problem that's going to need a lot of work, gangs etc. The whole lack of aspiration apart from a mobile/pair of trainers ideal is just disturbing.

Worriying to even hear on the news of 'bringing the army in'.

Serious shit that needs sorting out.

Thing is, Griff, when we went through similar in the '70s and early '80s, there were at least a few diversions, like the vague possibility of a job. Unemplyment is as bad now as it ever got back then, but with the added kick in the bollocks that "youth services" as a whole have been slashed, and "job creation" doesn't even include sops like the YOP and YTS.

We were already teens when Thatcherism started. We weren't exposed to the same blanket of consumerist propaganda that they were. Fuck, we thought we were well cool if we had Dunlop Green Flash instead of black plimsolls for PE! Imagine what it might be like, to grow up with relentless examples of consumption shoved at you, and to have little or no means to participate in it yourself. I'm not saying this as an excuse or as a justification for some of the behavior, but I do offer it as a reason (among many) for some of it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That reminds me. Gas is very unlikely to happen because it would require the police to wear gas masks, something which they are in no way used to. You'll have riots cops collapsed all over the place with exhaustion if gas is deployed.

Sounds good to me!

 

[Streathamite]

actually its frightening PT, it doesn't seem like the 80's riots which had some political direction, this is just nihilism and random violence, its like a whole class has been licence to do what they want..

and yes, people are being pulled out of cars, etc, it is on the newslines, Guardian, radio 5, etc..

In short, a whole generation has given up on society and its' norms, and is finally going berserk. Not really surprising

 

[faux pas]

It's even easier (and cheaper) to make a start. ALL that Cameron needed to do today to massively defuse the situation was to say that any police officer found guilty of misconduct in the shooting of Mark Duggan would also face the full force of the law. He didn't. So basically all he's done is thrown down the gauntlet and tell the youth of the inner cities that in the UK the law is upheld by force and only applies to the working classes.

Which isn't to condone looting and so on, but just to point out that we are ruled by people who make the average teenage internet troll appear almost sentient.

Of course, if Cameron said 'misconduct in the shooting of Mark Duggan would also face the full force of the law', that would massively defuse the situation!

I can see it now. All the looters stopping in their tracks and dropping their Ipads and latest Adidas trainers.

A: 'It's alright, bro!, Prime Minisiter said about the Mark Duggan shit'

B: 'Who tha fuck's Mark Duggan?'

 

[Streathamite]

that's where the labour former cabinet minister whose husband had something to do with berlusconi lives. she has a nice house. in fact much of kentish town is very nice.

even queen's crescent's improved over the last 20 years.

Jowell? you sure that dreadful woman don't live in her constituency i.e. editor's?

 

[Kizmet]

In short, a whole generation has given up on society and its' norms, and is finally going berserk. Not really surprising

I said a similar thing on the reason thread.

This generation have watched our generation and learned.

What have we taught them?

 

[Streathamite]

Insults aside, I'm sure you're a nice enough person in person, but reading your posts really start to grate.

Sure, it's natural and right to try to look deeper and try to understand. But if fear of punishment and real hard deterrents is also a social requirement, then any fool can see it's needed right now.

We need to show them that this is not acceptable. They need to know that they can't do this and it's getting way too flipping late!

The police DO NOT HAVE THIS UNDER CONTROL! London's in flames and they stand and watch.

Tottenham was an absolute disgrace. But because the police pussyfooted around, the criminals around London are now having a field day! That's frightening, no? We need to stop them; not understand them.

Have you ever actually BEEN to tottenham, or spent any time in that sort of innercity working class community that I have spent my whole adult life in? The police ARE the problem - they have totally lost the confidence of the community, due to their racism and harassment. This is NOT just about a tiny handful of mindless thugs, nor is it just a law & order problem - this is about a generation of deprived, resnetful kids who are watching their future sold up the river for the sake of the rich. No,they are not stupid, and yes they can read and write well en ough to be seriously pissed off.

 

[Streathamite]

The police don't 'want it to get out of hand', obviously. They haven't effectively quelled this because, as the BBC 'social order expert' said last night, the police are frightened to even shove a 'protester'. Hence their 'tactics' are thus: standing around watching criminals run riot around London.

tory party conference thataway ===>>>>>

 

[Treacle Toes]

What have we taught them?

Very good question.

 

[pk]

What have we taught them?

Can't teach the unteachable. These looting pricks have likely been excluded from mainstream school several times over already.

 

[Streathamite]

Still haven't mastered a simple sentence, I see. What an unbelievably thick twat you are! LOL

is that the best you can do? do try and master thart of internet debate, there's a good little boy, cos you sure haven't mastered that of the art of reason.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Insults aside, I'm sure you're a nice enough person in person, but reading your posts really start to grate.

Sure, it's natural and right to try to look deeper and try to understand. But if fear of punishment and real hard deterrents is also a social requirement, then any fool can see it's needed right now.

Fucking hell, it's like listening to a village idiot gibbering.

Has it occurred to you that for some of those rioters "punishment and real hard deterrents" are, to borrow a phrase from Clement and La Frenais, "an occupational hazard"?

We need to show them that this is not acceptable. They need to know that they can't do this and it's getting way too flipping late!

Who is this "we"? Are you going to be out there, dealing out birchings and "real hard deterrents", or will you be sitting behind your keyboard, masturbating?

The police DO NOT HAVE THIS UNDER CONTROL! London's in flames and they stand and watch.

Have you asked yourself why?

Tottenham was an absolute disgrace. But because the police pussyfooted around, the criminals around London are now having a field day! That's frightening, no? We need to stop them; not understand them.

More rhetoric, wind about criminals having a field day, and there being no need to understand.

Guess what? Unless you understand why, you're helpless to prevent recurrences, you cheese-witted bore.

 

[trampie]

Thing is, Griff, when we went through similar in the '70s and early '80s, there were at least a few diversions, like the vague possibility of a job. Unemplyment is as bad now as it ever got back then, but with the added kick in the bollocks that "youth services" as a whole have been slashed, and "job creation" doesn't even include sops like the YOP and YTS.

We were already teens when Thatcherism started. We weren't exposed to the same blanket of consumerist propaganda that they were. Fuck, we thought we were well cool if we had Dunlop Green Flash instead of black plimsolls for PE! Imagine what it might be like, to grow up with relentless examples of consumption shoved at you, and to have little or no means to participate in it yourself. I'm not saying this as an excuse or as a justification for some of the behavior, but I do offer it as a reason (among many) for some of it.

Good post.

 

[trampie]

Have you ever actually BEEN to tottenham, or spent any time in that sort of innercity working class community that I have spent my whole adult life in? The police ARE the problem - they have totally lost the confidence of the community, due to their racism and harassment. This is NOT just about a tiny handful of mindless thugs, nor is it just a law & order problem - this is about a generation of deprived, resnetful kids who are watching their future sold up the river for the sake of the rich. No,they are not stupid, and yes they can read and write well en ough to be seriously pissed off.

Good post.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The police don't 'want it to get out of hand', obviously. They haven't effectively quelled this because, as the BBC 'social order expert' said last night, the police are frightened to even shove a 'protester'. Hence their 'tactics' are thus: standing around watching criminals run riot around London.

Give yourself a laugh, look up the credentials of the Beeb's "social order expert".

It's nothing to do with police being "frightened to even shove a 'protester' ". In nearly 50 years I've never known a member of the Met to be shy about using physical force, even when it isn't necessary. Now, I'm sure that doesn't fit in with your peroration on "political correctness gone mad" (which is what this is, isn't it?), but it is a hard fact learned by a majority of London's working class, and by all of the BME communities.

They're "standing around", basically running a "work to rule", to make a political point, not because politically-correct health and safety policies prevent them from dishing out physical force, but because they want central government to re-think the financial cuts to the police services.

 

[pk]

They're "standing around", basically running a "work to rule", to make a political point, not because politically-correct health and safety policies prevent them from dishing out physical force, but because they want central government to re-think the financial cuts to the police services.

This is my take on it also.

 

[faux pas]

Have you ever actually BEEN to tottenham, or spent any time in that sort of innercity working class community that I have spent my whole adult life in? The police ARE the problem - they have totally lost the confidence of the community, due to their racism and harassment. This is NOT just about a tiny handful of mindless thugs, nor is it just a law & order problem - this is about a generation of deprived, resnetful kids who are watching their future sold up the river for the sake of the rich. No,they are not stupid, and yes they can read and write well en ough to be seriously pissed off.

I lived in Tottenham for years - two places. Also I grew up near the Tottenham end of Forestreet (the border between Tottenham and Edmonton). There are probably a lot of people in Tottenham who don't trust the police. I probably don't disagree with a lot of what you have to say about the roots of the problem. Clearly, where we part company is our approach to this emergency. While London's in flames, I don't believe this disgusting behaviour should be dealt with in an understanding manner, else condone it and exacerbate it. You believe the opposite. Perhaps you're right. Perhaps heavy-handedness would exacerbate the problem. I don't believe anyone knows for sure. But I'm worried about sending the wrong message, as what they are doing is so principally wrong.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I was quoting a BBC expert on social order, so I guess it's you that's clueless.

No, you were quoting in agreement, which is a somewhat different thing than merely quoting.

 

[Giles]

The problem is; if I take your sub-daily mail, reactionary argument to its' logical conclusion, one is left with one overriding, unavoidable conclusion; the middle class youth of the home counties and of kensington etc are simply morally better than the working class youth of Tottenham, which is simply horseshit.
this is a social problem, not simply a law and order one. the solution is to provide facilities, opportunities and hope for a generation who have simply lost all faith in their society. 'Long custodial sentences' may appease the internet vigilantes amongst us, but it will do ZERo to solve Tottenham's problems, ditto Brixton and Hackney. ALL you will achieve by imposing such sentences is to criminalise and alienate an entire generation.

Heaven forfend we "criminalise" people for such trivial matters as burning down a block of flats making families homeless as well as endangering their lives, putting dozens if not hundreds of people out of work by burning and looting their workplaces, and fighting with the police!

Young crims on the rob are just that: scum seeing an opportunity to take from people who work for a living and to trash their own neighbourhoods.

If these people want to make nothing but a mess of their lives, then that is their fault - not "societies".

Giles..

 

[dylans]

Give yourself a laugh, look up the credentials of the Beeb's "social order expert".

It's nothing to do with police being "frightened to even shove a 'protester' ". In nearly 50 years I've never known a member of the Met to be shy about using physical force, even when it isn't necessary. Now, I'm sure that doesn't fit in with your peroration on "political correctness gone mad" (which is what this is, isn't it?), but it is a hard fact learned by a majority of London's working class, and by all of the BME communities.

They're "standing around", basically running a "work to rule", to make a political point, not because politically-correct health and safety policies prevent them from dishing out physical force, but because they want central government to re-think the financial cuts to the police services.

This was my thought on it when I watched the news this morning. Lines of cops standing ten metres from looters and watching.They are sending a message about what a reduced police force looks like.

 

[faux pas]

Guess what? Unless you understand why, you're helpless to prevent recurrences, you cheese-witted bore.

I don't believe looking into the root causes is what we need right now, to deal with the situation. Not that we should never do so. But of course, you know it all, don't you?