Kicking Off In Tottenham

[Giles]

Protestors with a genuine case to make can protest and occupy space, but peacefully.

You are what you do, I'm afraid.

If your "protest" is peaceful and genuine, you may have a point worth listening to.

If your "protest" involves looting a mobile phone shop, smashing and burning some poor fuckers car or house, destroying ordinary people's livelihoods and homes, then that makes you selfish scum.

Simples!

Giles..

 

[andy2002]

Anyone know what's gone off in Barking? Train station closed and unlikely to open again until tomorrow.

 

[Streathamite]

be sure to keep cheering them on if something of yours or your loved ones is smashed or burned for no reason, retard! I'd support these people if they were railing against the government or had any kind of message, but they aren't. They're robbing JJB and burning down foot locker. It's not exactly the arab spring.

In tottenham, the main causal factor is resentment at the police, unemployment and poverty, ditto here (leyton) - if that isn't 'political', I don't know what is.

 

[Tankus]

Wow I didn't realise how many cunts were on Urban until this thread...

oh...... theres plenty of sickos on here that think this is great

 

[Barking_Mad]

Anyway, is Dave enjoying Tuscany?

 

[treelover]

'whereas you are spraying piss n shit everywhere'

'20.45 Victoria Ward in Peckham reports:
I am with a young Spanish woman who lives behind the Greggs bakery which is on fire in Peckham. She is in tears, saying that a gang burgled her house while the road was being evacuated. She now can't get access as it's all blocked off by riot police.'

you can say what you fucking like, terrible things are happening to ordinary people, such as the above....

 

[claphamboy]

Extra police copters called in from both Surrey & Sussex police.

 

[Corax]

Longer term effects of this may be pretty shit. Carte blanche for the police to be as 'robust' as they feel like, more numbers in the riot squad, water cannon etc...

I hope I'm wrong, but with the TVs the country over showing burning neighbourhoods, a tory government in power, and an increasingly 'ambitious' police force it wouldn't exactly be a surprise.

Maybe Clegg will save us.

 

[noodles]

'whereas you are spraying piss n shit everywhere'

'20.45 Victoria Ward in Peckham reports:
I am with a young Spanish woman who lives behind the Greggs bakery which is on fire in Peckham. She is in tears, saying that a gang burgled her house while the road was being evacuated. She now can't get access as it's all blocked off by riot police.'

you can say what you fucking like, terrible things are happening to ordinary people, such as the above....

Quite. Too many apologists for these scum. They aren't protestors at all - they are bullies and cowards.

 

[lopsidedbunny]

I heard that the youf are heading from East Ham towards Romford who knows...

 

[Streathamite]

Tell her not to worry, Paulie.

Tell her that "riot is the voice of the unheard".

oh ffs, another one. Look, I am potentially right in the middle of this, and yes I'm fucking scared.
but simply condemning our urban w/c youth, or - worse - writing them off as 'subhuman savages' simply isn't enough; unless we understand why this is happening, why this anger, frustration and resentment has suddenly boiled over, is the only way we can forestall countless repetitions of this.

 

[elbows]

If your "protest" involves looting a mobile phone shop, smashing and burning some poor fuckers car or house, destroying ordinary people's livelihoods and homes, then that makes you selfish scum.

Simples!

Giles..

Such judgements are largely irrelevant though, they don't offer any ways for society to deal with the problem and avoid a repeat.

Condemnation is the easy bit.

A very extreme example would be terrorists. We bend over backwards to condemn their methods, and usually claim we will not be give them what they want, but in reality some steps are usually taken which could be described as gains for the terrorists cause.

So, people can drool all they want about the horror of the symptoms, its understandable, but don't kid yourself that it has much to do with any solutions or avoiding these things happening in future.

 

[Corax]

Quite. Too many apologists for these scum. They aren't protestors at all - they are bullies and cowards.

There's a difference between condoning their actions, and believing that they're a product of their environments.

 

[treelover]

Most of these looters are not undertaking 'collective bargaining by riot', they are taking advantage of the situations to 'steal shit'

though of course they are a product of their environment, but how mcuh can you accept, burning people out of homes...

are the EDL a product of their environment..

 

[terratech]

Reported in Guardian.... Full on Hand to Hand Fighting with Police
London riots: the third night – live coverage

Hand-to-hand fighting
People ripping off tree branches to attack police. This is all Three Sisters Church

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/08/london-riots-third-night-live

 

[ericjarvis]

The point is that simply demanding punishment for rioters and looters whilst ignoring the original grievances simply makes more people feel they have nothing to lose.

The law can work through consensus or through force. If the establishment are saying that the killing of (usually) young (almost always) black men by police isn't something to take seriously, but that any form of rioting or looting is, then it is the establishment that has broken the consensus, and it's pretty much inevitable that some people will set out to see what force the police have actually got.

Making statements without that as the context is simply making things worse. Either a crime is a crime or it isn't. In my view it should be, so my attitude is that any police officers involved in a cover up over the circumstances of Mark Duggan's death should be punished appropriately as should anyone involved in violence, theft, arson, and vandalism. However I appear to be at odds with the establishment view.

So what's the problem? Is there a logical error in how I'm looking at this? If not, then why are we letting politicians who are supposed to be professionals at this sort of shit get away with constantly making statements that are pretty much guaranteed to make things worse?

 

[noodles]

There's a difference between condoning their actions, and believing that they're a product of their environments.

They are in a tiny, tiny minority of thousands - if not millions - of other people brought up in identical environments, so that doesn't wash for me.

 

[Streathamite]

Oh Spy !!!

Most folks on here ARE concerned about the fate of individuals, but , generally, it's people trying to understand what's happening not knee-jerk into "troops on the streets" & such tosh.

precisely, and I'm trying very hard, sitting in my bedfroom in east London, trying not to think of the worst-case scenario if things escalate.

 

[Spymaster]

oh ffs, another one. Look, I am potentially right in the middle of this, and yes I'm fucking scared.
but simply condemning our urban w/c youth, or - worse - writing them off as 'subhuman savages' simply isn't enough; unless we understand why this is happening, why this anger, frustration and resentment has suddenly boiled over, is the only way we can forestall countless repetitions of this.

How do you think they should be dealt with right now then, Jez?

 

[Streathamite]

They are in a tiny, tiny minority of thousands - if not millions - of other people brought up in identical environments, so that doesn't wash for me.

so why do you think these riots are happening in impoverished Tottenham, hackney, Lewisham, and not in esher or ascot, hmm?
Ever thought there might be some complex social and economic causal factors?

 

[pk]

Eh? inflicting this shit on the rest of us?

Fuck this. I'm on a phone list of elderly residents in Croydon town centre, ready to jump in the car if they don't pick up. I've kids at home scared, and you're bringing up 10 year old spats.

Fuck this.

 

[treelover]

21.10 Telegraph sources: David Cameron is to return to Britain overnight

maybe correct...

confirmed, he is to call a Cobra meeting tomorrow..,.

 

[noodles]

so why do you think these riots are happening in impoverished Tottenham, hackney, Lewisham, and not in esher or ascot, hmm?
Ever thought there might be some complex social and economic causal factors?

So what separates the thousands of people who grew up in identical circumstances to these rioters, from the rioters themselves?

 

[grit]

confirmed on bbc cameron on the way back

 

[Teepee]

In tottenham, the main causal factor is resentment at the police, unemployment and poverty, ditto here (leyton) - if that isn't 'political', I don't know what is.

So they burn down foot locker and a furniture shop? They are angry, yes. But they are also fucking stupid and thoughtless.

 

[pk]

urban75 - this could have been your moment. New forum software and everything. I'm better off on Twitter, this is a joke.
Even the fuckin BBC is more useful.

 

[Corax]

They are in a tiny, tiny minority of thousands - if not millions - of other people brought up in identical environments, so that doesn't wash for me.

So you don't think it's because they're a product of their environments.

By deduction then, you must believe that it's genetic. Interesting.

 

[noodles]

So you don't think it's because they're a product of their environments.

By deduction then, you must believe that it's genetic. Interesting.

It's very revealing that you didn't answer my question but instead tried to put words in my mouth.

Perhaps I should ask you again: What separates the thousands of people who grew up in identical circumstances to these rioters, from the rioters themselves?

 

[pk]

speculate away.meanwhile your fucking precious working classes are suffering and scared.I'm off to Croydon.Fuck anyone nearby who isn't trying to help the most vulnerable in this chav looting shit.

 

[treelover]

have to ask, where are all the metal barriers, steel screens, etc, the Met utilises for political protests?