Kicking Off In Tottenham

[ViolentPanda]

May not fit the standard definition of 'slums', but there are plenty of areas where the young, rightly or wrongly depending on your point of view, see no chance of themselves ever going to university and/or getting out of a cycle of poverty.

Mr Down doesn't appear to grasp that a "slum" is a "slum" relative to the greater society it exists within. If the quality and upkeep of the housing is markedly poorer relative to the surrounding environment then it is, by definition, a "slum".

 

[Pickman's model]

Quantify "slum".

In terms of housing quality, I can think of dozens of estates just local to me where the quality of housing is lower than the sort of place my parents were moved from in the '60s as part of the "slum clearances" in Southwark and Lambeth. Having an inside bog doesn't mean you don't live in a slum, it just means you live in a slum that has inside bogs.

yeh, a lot of the slums in hackney demolished in the 1930s actually looked relatively decent in pictures and sturdier than some of the housing which has replaced them.

 

[Spymaster]

rock n roll - dole

 

[teqniq]

more from twitter:

asa_wire Asa Winstanley
A mate in Brixton: "when the revolution is televised. 500 youth will have widescreen tvs to watch it on" haha

 

[dennisr]

Yes, Tottenham is very poor and the life chances of those who are raised there will be worse than most other places in the country, but we should not pretend that the vast majority of people who live and grew up there did this, or that the people who did do this have compelling reasons for doing so - any more than they have compelling reasons when they rob, stab, rape, shoot and kill other poor kids.

To an extent you have a point. But there is this nagging concern - you see - I cannot see how shooting some kid dead and then trying to cover up the reality 'helps' the situation? Any more that being the loyal imposers (while crying 'neutral' - 'just doing our job' etc) of enforsing (at last resort, when all else fails) cuts, criminalisation and institutionalling poverty, division and hopelessness 'helps' the situation? After so many decades of hearing the same old crocodile tears (wrapped in pointing to the failing of others to cover up your own sides failures) I get a bit - you know - cynical about your motivation for saying what you do.

 

[Pickman's model]

The looters were spread too thinly over the course of the evening. You can't expect them to respond to every opportunity immediately. Most of them had to decide whether to loot Dalston, or travel south to Bricky, and given the lack of available transport infrastructure they should be commended for their speedy response to both situations. Their resources were stretched to breaking point but they still coped. I think you're being unfair in raising the issue of the non-burning of Wood Green.

dalston and brixton were, er, last night; wood green the night before.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Shops are shutting, buildings being evacuated in Hackney, and the Town Hall being protected by the police CONFIRMED #hackney #londonriots

 

[agricola]

out of curiosity how do you know the people who 'did this' are rapists and murderers?

you dont know that gangs rape and kill people?

 

[trampie]

Quantify "slum".

In terms of housing quality, I can think of dozens of estates just local to me where the quality of housing is lower than the sort of place my parents were moved from in the '60s as part of the "slum clearances" in Southwark and Lambeth. Having an inside bog doesn't mean you don't live in a slum, it just means you live in a slum that has inside bogs.

OMG, it sounds like a terrible area, a real rat hole, how awful.

 

[Spymaster]

dalston and brixton were, er, last night; wood green the night before.

Well quite. You can't expect them to be everywhere all the time. Give 'em a break.

 

[Pickman's model]

you dont know that gangs rape and kill people?

no, i don't know it. but i'd be interested to see how you know it. i imagine there's some gangs which kill people and some people in gangs who rape people but i wouldn't say i know it.

 

[Sue]

"march in Hackney. mare street shutters being closed" - so hackney?

(maybe this is your chance to develop technique pickers?)

Just been in the Tesco in Morning Lane. Some guy was sounding off about all the shops in Dalston closing early because 'they'd been told to.' Couple of police vans and lots of police outside the town hall when I went past.

 

[agricola]

no, i don't know it. but i'd be interested to see how you know it. i imagine there's some gangs which kill people and some people in gangs who rape people but i wouldn't say i know it.

Do you not read, watch or generally follow the news?

 

[Pickman's model]

Do you not read, watch or generally follow the news?

the news is all too often long on allegations and short on proof.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No argument, so make with the insults.

And what is this "pidgin argot"?

"Gibs me dat"?

I'm just surprised you didn't round it off with ""where am dat warty-mell-on?".

I just don't buy this stuff about how looting trainer-shops, computer and mobile phone shops etc, is a political act. These people are just stealing stuff "because they can".

Giles..

You chide me for having no argument, fair enough. But to then post your opinion as though it presents any sort of argument, rather than merely showcasing your banal attempt to justify your misanthropy, is risible.

 

[butchersapron]

Been posted? Time lapse shot as the fires burned into the early Morning over Tottenham

 

[ViolentPanda]

By stupid and weak-minded people believing everything that they see on telly!

Giles..

Nope, by being inculcated with consumerism from the time they were old enough to be conscious of their surroundings. Think you're immune to it? Think you're better than these supposedly "stupid and weak-willed" people? You're not. None of us are. We all have the same forces acting on us. Some of us, by dint of whatever factors are better able to resist, but that's not because we're better people, it's because we're mostly in better circumstances.

 

[ajdown]

I guess by the mess left in the road by the neighbours and my ongoing damp problem at home I must live in a 'slum' then. I guess I'd better stop by Poundland on my way home tonight to get a scarf or something I can wear later when I go out chucking bricks through random shop windows.

 

[agricola]

To an extent you have a point. But there is this nagging concern - you see - I cannot see how shooting some kid dead and then trying to cover up the reality 'helps' the situation? Any more that being the loyal imposers (while crying 'neutral' - 'just doing our job' etc) of enforsing (at last resort, when all else fails) cuts, criminalisation and institutionalling poverty, division and hopelessness 'helps' the situation? After so many decades of hearing the same old crocodile tears (wrapped in pointing to the failing of others to cover up your own sides failures) I get a bit - you know - cynical about your motivation for saying what you do.

It doesnt, and the fact that the Met is not believed when it comes out with statements nowadays is clearly its own fault, given its history. I would hope however that the IPCC (as they did with Tomlinson, albeit unsupported by the CPS initially) and a full inquest gets to the bottom of what went on, and punish anyone who is found responsible for wrongdoing.

 

[Garek]

It doesnt, and the fact that the Met is not believed when it comes out with statements nowadays is clearly its own fault, given its history. I would hope however that the IPCC (as they did with Tomlinson, albeit unsupported by the CPS initially) and a full inquest gets to the bottom of what went on, and punish anyone who is found responsible for wrongdoing.

The IPCC are as distrusted as the police.

 

[agricola]

The IPCC are as distrusted as the police.

Because of their long history of coverups? Like... um... and you know...

 

[BlackArab]

Bumped as Billie and other posters who have pointed out the racial make up of the rioters seem to have missed it and I'm interested in their answers.

If they were anarchists and/or UK Uncut protestors would you feel it necessary to point out their racial backgrounds? If not, why not?

bumpity, bumpity, bumpity bump! bump bump bump!

 

[Garek]

Because of their long history of coverups? Like... um... and you know...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/feb/25/police.law1

 

[Garek]

If they were anarchists and/or UK Uncut protestors would you feel it necessary to point out their racial backgrounds? If not, why not?

bumpity, bumpity, bumpity bump! bump bump bump!

Like in New Orleans, black people loot, white people find.

 

[cybertect]

Been posted? Time lapse shot as the fires burned into the early Morning over Tottenham

that is strangely beautiful.

 

[ViolentPanda]

yeh there were 300 people went for each of my jobs.

I've got a lot of respect for anyone who doesn't go to pieces with the employment situation the way it's been for the last 10 or so years. We thought we had it really bad in the late '70s, but there were only a million of us, and youth unemployment was nowhere near as savage, either.

 

[treelover]

If these gangs are not confronted, they will I predict physically turn on other Londoners....

 

[agricola]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/feb/25/police.law1

The PALG represent complainants against the police, they are hardly disinterested parties.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Because of their long history of coverups? Like... um... and you know...

Well, they appear to have been involved in attempts to suppress the footage of Ian Tomlinson being attacked for example.

It began with an anodyne press release from the Metropolitan police more than three hours after Ian Tomlinson died. It ended with a police officer and an investigator from the Independent Police Complaints Commissionasking the Guardian to remove a video from its website showing an unprovoked police assault on Mr Tomlinson minutes before his heart attack. <snip>

But the release of the video by the Guardian this week, which revealed Mr Tomlinson was subjected to an unprovoked attack by a Met riot squad officer minutes before he died, has forced the IPCC to step up to the demand that it launch a full independent inquiry.

"They have caught a real cold on this," said a senior source. "They were very slow, they clearly didn't think anything was wrong and they didn't look for it. Sometimes they just don't seem to be very independent."

A former IPCC insider went further, blaming a "cosy" relationship with the police for the commission's failure to act quickly. "The problem with the IPCC is that it is too late to start inquiries and they go on for too long," said John Crawley, a commissioner for four years. "They should have picked this up as an independent investigation straight away. There was strong public interest given the concern about the 'kettling' tactics being used to police the protests and the need to gain the confidence of those demonstrators with information to come forward to someone who wasn't the police."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/09/g20-police-assault-ian-tomlinson-g20

The key issue here being that they seemingly needed actual footage of an attack being committed before it occured to them to bother investigating, and that their first reaction was apparently to try to suppress the footage rather than investigate.

 

[Streathamite]

well because they don't

quite!