Kicking Off In Tottenham

[Paulie Tandoori]

Sorry to hear that. If you hear anything about a support fund for those affected, could you post about it please?

definitely, we're trying to get hold of her to see what we can do to help out.

 

[DrRingDing]

A lot of that depends on your definition of poverty, ie not being able to buy the latest trainers, tv or have an expensive car and lots of bling.

Most of the reason that people see no chance of getting out of their "cycle of poverty" is because getting educated and working hard to improve yourself is not "cool" whereas hanging with your bluds and doing a bit of drug dealing gains "respect" amongst your peers.

I do not believe that anyone in our modern society cannot improve their lot. Admittedly it may be harder for some than others, however I really don't think it's beyond anyone's grasp.

Shocking.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nothing genetic about it. It is entirely nurture versus nature.

Quantified how, exactly?

See, the thing with people who make the sort of argument you have, is that they skim the surface of the literature and cherry-pick bits that fit they're preconceived agenda, so if you've found a novel quantification of the "nature versus nurture" argument that circumvents all the usual bullshit, I'd like to hear it.

People on here have suggested that looting is somehow justified because of the capitalist society we live in. I am merely saying that if we have an underclass of people who are sustained with benefits/crimes then what the frick do we expect?

Again, you're arguing from your preconceptions rather than from fact. The existence of an underclass isn't a precondition for riot, neither is the existence of a section of the working class tied to crime as a method of obtaining income.

Do a bit of research on riots - the main precondition for riot (aside from religion, always a good one) is what you might term "excessive exploitation", either financially or politically. Seems to me that ties i quite closely with Capitalism, and partially justifies riot. What elese are people supposed to do when "normal channels" have either failed, or don't actually allow them access?

Either I am right, the people who bemoan the capitalist system are right or neither of us are right.

Yes, it's that simple and reduces to three options, doesn't it?

You berk.

 

[krtek a houby]

krtek

you're a fucking empty vessel with no intelligence to question. you don't know what absolutism means, or you wouldn't use the word as you do. and i'm not a stalinist.

you're a thick fuck. if you're not after a 'ding dong' fuck off.

Ah, the old pickman "fuck off" automated dummy response. Change the record, fella.

I know you're not a Stalinist. It's a ridiculous accusation, in similar vein to your tactics.

You are an angry and bitter man who is well known for targetting posters and not letting go. I imagine its down to personality disorder or feelings of insecurity... you haven't answered why you my abhorence of the weekends events offends you so much, btw.

 

[ajdown]

Yep. Having known someone like this and seen how nihilistic they were, I'd say, to ajdown, 'you don't have a fucking clue do you?' I know a couple of people working in social services with kids like this (one in Tottenham, the other in Coventry) and they both say, if you don't get them before they're teenagers you've little or no change of ever rehabilitating them.

Thank the last 20-30 years of socialist politics destroying the education system and society in general for that one.

 

[London_Calling]

When you say 'socialist' you do mean neo-liberal?

 

[Diamond]

The guardian are reporting that the following may be an example of a BBM message used to coordinate the small Oxford Circus riot:

Everyone from all sides of London meet up at the heart of London (central) OXFORD CIRCUS!!, Bare SHOPS are gonna get smashed up so come get some (free stuff!!!) fuck the feds we will send them back with OUR riot! >:O
Dead the ends and colour war for now so
if you see a brother... SALUT!
if you see a fed... SHOOT!
We need more MAN then feds so Everyone run wild, all of london and others are invited! Pure terror and havoc & Free stuff....just smash shop windows and cart out da stuff u want! Oxford Circus!!!!! 9pm, we don't need pussyhole feds to run the streets and put our brothers in jail so tool up,
its a free world so have fun running wild shopping
Oxford Circus 9pm if u see a fed stopping a brother JUMP IN!!! EVERYONE JUMP IN niggers will be lurking about, all blacked out we strike at 9:15pm-9:30pm, make sure ur there see you there. REMEMBA DA LOCATION!!! OXFORD CIRCUS!!!
MUST REBROADCAST TO ALL CONTACTS!!!"

Apparently BBM has been a key organising tool in the riots.

 

[Giles]

Go on, euthanasia boy, have the courage of your convictions, and put some faces to the pidgin argot.

You two-bob cunt.

No argument, so make with the insults.

And what is this "pidgin argot"?

I just don't buy this stuff about how looting trainer-shops, computer and mobile phone shops etc, is a political act. These people are just stealing stuff "because they can".

Giles..

 

[Garek]

Thank the last 20-30 years of socialist politics destroying the education system and society in general for that one.

Thirty years ago was 1981. Are you saying Thatcher was a socialist?

Twenty Years ago was 1991. Are you saying Major was a socialist?

 

[frogwoman]

It's not a political act, but this probably wouldn't have happened under different circumstances

 

[Pickman's model]

Ah, the old pickman "fuck off" automated dummy response. Change the record, fella.

I know you're not a Stalinist. It's a ridiculous accusation, in similar vein to your tactics.

You are an angry and bitter man who is well known for targetting posters and not letting go. I imagine its down to personality disorder or feelings of insecurity... you haven't answered why you my abhorence of the weekends events offends you so much, btw.

your abhorrence of the weekend's events doesn't offend me at all. you made that up. i haven't said that i'm offended by your views on the riots anywhere on these boards or elsewhere.

 

[BlackArab]

If they were anarchists and/or UK Uncut protestors would you feel it necessary to point out their racial backgrounds? If not, why not?

Bumped as Billie and other posters who have pointed out the racial make up of the rioters seem to have missed it and I'm interested in their answers.

 

[cantsin]

They should shoot a few of them. They probabyl weren't going to get jobs anyway.

Giles..

why don't get together with fellow knobhead fantasist Spymaster and do it yourselves, you both talk a good game on the internet you pitiful dweebs

 

[nino_savatte]

I just don't buy this stuff about how looting trainer-shops, computer and mobile phone shops etc, is a political act. These people are just stealing stuff "because they can".

Giles..

You haven't quite grasped how luxury goods have been magically transformed into necessities. How do you think that happens?

 

[Garek]

These people are just stealing stuff "because they can".

Giles..

Wonder where there learnt that from...

 

[frogwoman]

I see the terrorist-supporting "counter-jihad" scum are saying it's muslims doing the rioting on some parts of the internet.

 

[Streathamite]

well, who else was it, only on urban will you get people defending violent looters*..

*here i mean the organised criminal gangs.

People on here may take certain lessons and pleasures from the looting, but the people in power, the R/W media and many of the population will take other (unpalatable to urbanites) extrapolations from them and will act accordingly, expect new measures on crime, welfare, immigration, etc...

There's a difference between defending the rioters - and understanding the social asnd ecfonomic causalo factors. Riots are not just 'the voice of the unheard'; they are a cry of despair, pure n simple. people do not riot if they have jobs, opportunities, hope and above all the feeling that there is a positive place for them in this society. I can understand how the kids in tottenham feel, cos there's every reason for them to not feel that any of those things exist for them.

 

[Pickman's model]

I see the terrorist-supporting "counter-jihad" scum are saying it's muslims doing the rioting on some parts of the internet.

that would be the hassidic muslims then

 

[Pickman's model]

There's a difference between defending the rioters - and understanding the social asnd ecfonomic causalo factors. Riots are not just 'the voice of the unheard'; they are a cry of despair, pure n simple. people do not riot if they have jobs, opportunities, hope and above all the feeling that there is a positive place for them in this society. I can understand how the kids in tottenham feel, cos there's every reason for them to not feel that any of those things exist for them.

well because they don't

 

[Giles]

You haven't quite grasped how luxury goods have been magically transformed into necessities. How do you think that happens?

By stupid and weak-minded people believing everything that they see on telly!

Giles..

 

[ViolentPanda]

I doubt it. It has fuck all to do with shit the EDL and BNP and assorted wankers say though. If it turns out a majority of rioters are Black or Asian might that not tell us about some of the inequalities of wealth in society? Could it not tell up something about who is hit the hardest by cuts? And about the hurt and anger that result?

Yep. Was explaining to my dad last night that youth unemployment for BMEs is more than twice what it is for white youth. We discussed why that might be and even he, inveterate Tory-voter, acknowledged that there was an element of racism as well as an element of classism to it. If you're shat on from the start, maybe not because of individual vindictiveness, but because the system operates in such a way as to disadvantage you, and on top of that it's always your community that gets most harshly affected by cuts, then why wouldn't you end up "chippy" about it, why wouldn't you perhaps find solace in "getting your own back" against anyone, anything you feel might have contributed to your situation?

 

[Spymaster]

why don't get together with fellow knobhead fantasist Spymaster and do it yourselves, you both talk a good game on the internet you pitiful dweebs

Ahh, Catshit, there you are, you grubby little knicker-sniffer.

Been wanking over looted school-wear this weekend?

 

[treelover]

i reckon London will see the same sort of policing the Coalfields saw, tonight, they are being drafted in from all over the country.

 

[nino_savatte]

By stupid and weak-minded people believing everything that they see on telly!

Giles..

A predictable reply from the man without a pair of brain cells to rub together.

You're some kind of Social Darwinist, aren't you?

 

[butchersapron]

By stupid and weak-minded people believing everything that they see on telly!

Giles..

They should be crushed. Lack of willpower - that's why we're in this mess.

 

[trampie]

Oh dear how terrible for London.

Reminds me of the nursery rhyme:-
London's burning, London's burning.
Fetch the engines, fetch the engines.
Fire fire, Fire Fire!
Pour on water, pour on water.
London's burning, London's burning.

What will the World think and the Olympic's are coming too.

 

[Pickman's model]

i reckon London will see the same sort of policing the Coalfields saw, tonight, they are being drafted in from all over the country.

what the cops will be waving tenners at people and handcuffing people to lampposts and running riot through working class parts of town and that?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Are there any jobs in the area for the unemployed to take?

Nope, like everywhere else in a similar urban situation, they're running at double and treble figures of applicants for every vacancy, and fuck-all opportunities if you're a youth.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

this is the message that we just got:

***'s flat was burnt to the ground in the riots. She was in the block above carpetright. Neighbour managed to wake her up just in time and help her get out with the baby, her son was at her mums. Its amazing no one was killed. Saw her yesterday, she's in total shock. That whole building was burnt to the ground. About 24 flats above the the shop - all gone.

 

[stuff_it]

A lot of that depends on your definition of poverty, ie not being able to buy the latest trainers, tv or have an expensive car and lots of bling.

Most of the reason that people see no chance of getting out of their "cycle of poverty" is because getting educated and working hard to improve yourself is not "cool" whereas hanging with your bluds and doing a bit of drug dealing gains "respect" amongst your peers.

I do not believe that anyone in our modern society cannot improve their lot. Admittedly it may be harder for some than others, however I really don't think it's beyond anyone's grasp.

Fuck me what planet did you grow up on?

I don't think you have any real idea how hard it is to 'improve your lot' in this day and age, and how much harder it is getting for more and more people very rapidly.

I suspect strongly that you haven't ever experienced real poverty.