Kicking Off In Tottenham

[BigTom]

Lots of projecting going on here, imo, i'm quite sure 10 year olds to 14 year olds have no political or otherwise consciousness of the cutting of bankers getting bigger bonuses, of Thatcher and neo-liberalism, etc, it was opportunism, look at what they looted: games, tv's, clothes, very few political locations, job centres, etc were attacked, it wasn't Brixton or Toxteth, it was the above kids but also organised criminal and volent gangs out to get what they could. There is plenty for young people to be angry about it in London and indeed the Uk, but these people weren't part of that.

the initial protest outside the Police station was a different case..

absolutely wrong on the bolded point ime .. working in an innercity secondary school in Birmingham, lots of the kids there, even some in year 7 (10/11) are aware of the cuts, the bankers, the politics that is going on.. not thatcher or a theoretical understanding of neo-liberalism, but politics definitely. Had plenty of them coming up to me after I was on local news on a UK Uncut protest and giving me respect, wanting to know more etc..been joined by a few on protests as well! (had as many ripping the piss out of me too of course)

I'm not saying there was no opportunism but there is also politics, and young kids - who are having their youth centres taken away, who are aware that they won't get EMA even thought they are being forced into staying in school post-16, choices being restricted, opportunities removed - are definitely aware of this.. not all of them, but from the experience in my school, I'd say by the time they are 14, most of them.. somewhere around year 9 (12/13) I'd say was the point where it was just a few of them to most of them..

 

[butchersapron]

haussmann was before the franco-prussian war

Yes, you're right. It was the 1848 revolution that led to his re-organisation not 1871. And it was that that helped killed the commune.

 

[Pickman's model]

I made my contribution, to which you replied (in your customary pre-school fashion) "tory! tory! you're a big tory". When I rubbished your claims you came back with "thicky! thicky! you're a big thicky".

no, you're a conservative with a small c not a Conservative, as in C & U Party

which part of that says you're a tory? you're a thick fuck krtek a houby.

 

[ViolentPanda]

They should shoot a few of them. They probabyl weren't going to get jobs anyway.

Giles..

No, it's you who should be shot, you rentier lesion on the body politic.

 

[butchersapron]

Political?

 

[ViolentPanda]

as well as a bit of PC idiocy......................... just for the sauce

TBF, you're a leading authority on idiocy.

 

[krtek a houby]

which part of that says you're a tory? you're a thick fuck krtek a houby.

Doesn't this sort of discourse belong in the playground?

I don't support violence and that makes me a tory - how is this so?

 

[sunnysidedown]

Thanks - the rest of it needed working on, but the postie just woke up the baby and i wanted to get something down.

Is it me or is this thread moving too quickly to have a decent discussion?

Agreed, maybe start a new thread with your observations?

 

[Giles]

Am I right in thinking that the concept of 'socio-economic' context is a tad too tricky for your poor lil reactionary brain to handle?

A bunch of (mainly) teenage boys loading up trollies with stolen stuff, and setting people's cars, shops and homes on fire doesn't need a "socio economic context" any more than does a bunch of football hooligans or muggers: they are doing it because they want to steal shit and smash shit up. For fun, and personal gain.

Giles..

 

[ajdown]

I wonder where they live then because I'm not aware of any 'slums' in London.

 

[treelover]

@BT,

Points taken especially as you are a teacher, I do remember a GAP protest where loads of kids joined us and were very knowledgable about the issues, I still maintain in this case there are as P/Monkey says, thousands of lost kids who don't give a shit about anyone but themselves, leaving aside how they got that way..

 

[butchersapron]

A bunch of (mainly) teenage boys loading up trollies with stolen stuff, and setting people's cars, shops and homes on fire doesn't need a "socio economic context" any more than does a bunch of football hooligans or muggers: they are doing it because they want to steal shit and smash shit up. For fun, and personal gain.

Giles..

What do you mean 'need'? It exists in a "socio economic context" whether you like or recognise the fact or not.

 

[krtek a houby]

A bunch of (mainly) teenage boys loading up trollies with stolen stuff, and setting people's cars, shops and homes on fire doesn't need a "socio economic context" any more than does a bunch of football hooligans or muggers: they are doing it because they want to steal shit and smash shit up. For fun, and personal gain.

Giles..

^ this. It has fuck all to do with the peaceful march on Saturday. Mark Duggan's family have said they don't condone the riots etc. The people involved in said riots/looting hardly give a fuck about him, do they?

 

[Garek]

I wonder where they live then because I'm not aware of any 'slums' in London.

May not fit the standard definition of 'slums', but there are plenty of areas where the young, rightly or wrongly depending on your point of view, see no chance of themselves ever going to university and/or getting out of a cycle of poverty.

 

[Pickman's model]

Doesn't this sort of discourse belong in the playground?

I don't support violence and that makes me a tory - how is this so?

this is clearly beyond your rather limited abilities. nonetheless i will have one more try.

there is a political party in the uk called the conservative party. i have not said you have anything to do with them.

there is a political ideology called conservatism. i have said that i think you're a conservative of this sort.

if you don't understand that then there's no fucking doubt that you're more than slightly, er, intellectually challenged.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Bollocks. Its just the subspecies out to grab more shit, while causing maximum destruction all round. Which is just what they do.

Giles..

Sub-species, Giles?

Your agenda and your misanthropy are showing. Typical member of the middle-classes.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Whereas you're the ubermensch, clearly

Giles doesn't even qualify as untermensch, he's more of a scheissemensch.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

just heard that someone i used to work with has lost her flat and everything in it due to fire on saturday night

 

[Spymaster]

you want it to be looters who burnt those buildings. fair enough. but fucking produce a shred of evidence to back up your assertion - its absence makes you look a bit daft.

I haven't mentioned looters burning anything, Pickers. You're confusing yourself again. I neither know nor care who torched what. I'm merely pointing out that your badgering of other posters to produce evidence as to who burned the buildings is pointless and pedantic, (no surprise there then).

Looters may have burned them, rioters may have burned them, looters may have become rioters, some rioters almost certainly became looters and vice versa.

You point, Pickers, is a wank one.

 

[krtek a houby]

this is clearly beyond your rather limited abilities. nonetheless i will have one more try.

there is a political party in the uk called the conservative party. i have not said you have anything to do with them.

there is a political ideology called conservatism. i have said that i think you're a conservative of this sort.

if you don't understand that then there's no fucking doubt that you're more than slightly, er, intellectually challenged.

Listen closely. If you want to have a ding dong, look elsewhere. I utterly reject your tired, desperate accusations - there's not a grain in truth in them. Now, you can scweam and shout and question my intelligence all you like; the fact is - not all those on the "left" aspire to your lofty heights of absolutism. Some of us, frankly, are bored shitless with the posturing and empty rhetoric that people like you espouse.

I abhor violence and I don't think the weekend's events have achieved anything. Sorry if that offends your Stalinist sensibilities.

 

[cybertect]

and i'd like to see evidence, if you please, of looters setting people's homes on fire.

There were flats above the Carpet shop in Tottenham

http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16045157

Stuart Radose, lived on Tottenham's High Road in a flat above a Carpetright store - both of which were destroyed during the violence.

"So many people have just lost everything. It's crazy," he said.

"It looks like it's the Second World War. It looks like the blitz, where we were living.

"I've got a balcony that overlooks the High Road and you could see things getting worse and worse, and there just didn’t seem to be a police presence at all.

"I think we've probably spent our last night in Tottenham. We're just in shock. I don't know how this was allowed to happen.

"It's like you're looking at reports from Syria. This is Tottenham, this is where we live, this is London. It's like a war zone.

"We've lost everything. The only things that we have are the clothes on us."
Another resident saw the home he shared with his wife and young daughter destroyed in the rioting.

He told Sky News: "It was maybe two o'clock in the morning when I saw it was on fire, but we couldn't go out because of all the people around.

"The front of the house was on fire... and after the flames were coming into our building and we were running away. Now we are homeless.

Not sure if the first guy is the same person I saw interviewed on the BBC.

There are other reports that people were looting some carpets from the shop.

Of course, what I don't have is evidence that it was specifically someone engaged in looting that then set fire to the building. It might have just been a passing, non-looting pyromaniac who thought he had an opportunity.

 

[ajdown]

May not fit the standard definition of 'slums', but there are plenty of areas where the young, rightly or wrongly depending on your point of view, see no chance of themselves ever going to university and/or getting out of a cycle of poverty.

A lot of that depends on your definition of poverty, ie not being able to buy the latest trainers, tv or have an expensive car and lots of bling.

Most of the reason that people see no chance of getting out of their "cycle of poverty" is because getting educated and working hard to improve yourself is not "cool" whereas hanging with your bluds and doing a bit of drug dealing gains "respect" amongst your peers.

I do not believe that anyone in our modern society cannot improve their lot. Admittedly it may be harder for some than others, however I really don't think it's beyond anyone's grasp.

 

[Garek]

A lot of that depends on your definition of poverty, ie not being able to buy the latest trainers, tv or have an expensive car and lots of bling.

Most of the reason that people see no chance of getting out of their "cycle of poverty" is because getting educated and working hard to improve yourself is not "cool" whereas hanging with your bluds and doing a bit of drug dealing gains "respect" amongst your peers.

I do not believe that anyone in our modern society cannot improve their lot. Admittedly it may be harder for some than others, however I really don't think it's beyond anyone's grasp.

What a load of fucking shite.

 

[SpineyNorman]

A lot of that depends on your definition of poverty, ie not being able to buy the latest trainers, tv or have an expensive car and lots of bling.

Most of the reason that people see no chance of getting out of their "cycle of poverty" is because getting educated and working hard to improve yourself is not "cool" whereas hanging with your bluds and doing a bit of drug dealing gains "respect" amongst your peers.

I do not believe that anyone in our modern society cannot improve their lot. Admittedly it may be harder for some than others, however I really don't think it's beyond anyone's grasp.

Well I'd certainly say reality is beyond your grasp.

 

[Pickman's model]

Listen closely. If you want to have a ding dong, look elsewhere. I utterly reject your tired, desperate accusations - there's not a grain in truth in them. Now, you can scweam and shout and question my intelligence all you like; the fact is - not all those on the "left" aspire to your lofty heights of absolutism. Some of us, frankly, are bored shitless with the posturing and empty rhetoric that people like you espouse.

I abhor violence and I don't think the weekend's events have achieved anything. Sorry if that offends your Stalinist sensibilities.

krtek

you're a fucking empty vessel with no intelligence to question. you don't know what absolutism means, or you wouldn't use the word as you do. and i'm not a stalinist.

you're a thick fuck. if you're not after a 'ding dong' fuck off.

 

[ajdown]

I do wonder how you lot always manage to turn things into a political issue.

 

[temper_tantrum]

just heard that someone i used to work with has lost her flat and everything in it due to fire on saturday night

Sorry to hear that. If you hear anything about a support fund for those affected, could you post about it please?

 

[Garek]

Just remembered something. As part of my job at Currys, warehouse assistant, 10 years ago, I had to smash up teles in a skip that had either come back, or were so old there weren't worth selling. Perfectly good, working teles. A skip full. If they can afford waste like that, they can afford to be looted.

 

[pinkmonkey]

What a load of fucking shite.

Yep. Having known someone like this and seen how nihilistic they were, I'd say, to ajdown, 'you don't have a fucking clue do you?' I know a couple of people working in social services with kids like this (one in Tottenham, the other in Coventry) and they both say, if you don't get them before they're teenagers you've little or no change of ever rehabilitating them.

 

[xes]

No idea if this has been posted yet, been offline all weekend. But the preliminary reports have said that the bullet lodged in piggy wiggy radio, was police issue.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...nce-spreads-as-north-london-riots-continue.do

Mr Duggan, a suspected member of a Tottenham gang, was killed by police specialist firearms officers during an operation last Thursday.
The fact he was carrying a replica gun will raise fresh doubts over reports that he was shot in an exchange of fire.
Preliminary ballistic tests on the bullet found lodged in a police officer's radio are believed to show that the ammunition was police issue.
Initial reports from the Independent Police Complaints Commission, which is investigating the shooting, suggested that Mr Duggan fired first and there was an exchange of shots. The Met has consistently refused to comment on the issue.