Keir Starmer's time is up

[two sheds]

carbon capture - because that's been so hugely successful so far

 

[danny la rouge]

Not always a massive fan of Pat (certainly not as much as he is himself), but he does have a point here.

 

[emanymton]

Not always a massive fan of Pat (certainly not as much as he is himself), but he does have a point here.

Good job Cameron is not around anymore

 

[danny la rouge]

People who are calling for a #GeneralElectionNOW need to address this stuff. The anti immigrant rhetoric, the “arrest protesters” chat, his personal connections with private healthcare concerns, the anti working class neoliberalism… What are we supporting here? Him literally just not being Sunak?

 

[Pickman's model]

People who are calling for a #GeneralElectionNOW need to address this stuff. The anti immigrant rhetoric, the “arrest protesters” chat, his personal connections with private healthcare concerns, the anti working class neoliberalism… What are we supporting here? Him literally just not being Sunak?

Makes kinnock look like a lefty

 

[Chz]

People who are calling for a #GeneralElectionNOW need to address this stuff. The anti immigrant rhetoric, the “arrest protesters” chat, his personal connections with private healthcare concerns, the anti working class neoliberalism… What are we supporting here? Him literally just not being Sunak?

There is the hope that, much like what happened to Cameron and May, the party behind him will enforce some change. That said, Labour MPs are rarely as rebellious as Tory ones.

 

[danny la rouge]

There is the hope that, much like what happened to Cameron and May, the party behind him will enforce some change. That said, Labour MPs are rarely as rebellious as Tory ones.

At the moment it just looks like he’s promising efficient evil instead of inefficient evil. Hmm. Haud me back.

 

[prunus]

People who are calling for a #GeneralElectionNOW need to address this stuff. The anti immigrant rhetoric, the “arrest protesters” chat, his personal connections with private healthcare concerns, the anti working class neoliberalism… What are we supporting here? Him literally just not being Sunak?

We are supporting getting these fucking tories out of government? Have you seen the devastation they're wreaking on the country??

If you've broken your leg in the wilderness you make a splint out of whatever's to hand, until you can find proper treatment.

Yes Starmer's Labour is hardly inspiring. But it just won't be as bad as the utter shower of shite currently eviscerating everything. So we takes steps to staunch the bleeding, and move forward to something better from there.

 

[Pickman's model]

We are supporting getting these fucking tories out of government? Have you seen the devastation they're wreaking on the country??

If you've broken your leg in the wilderness you make a splint out of whatever's to hand, until you can find proper treatment.

Yes Starmer's Labour is hardly inspiring. But it just won't be as bad as the utter shower of shite currently eviscerating everything. So we takes steps to staunch the bleeding, and move forward to something better from there.

do you know, this is exactly what people were saying in 1997.
and you mean you hope it won't be as bad as the utter shower of shite currently eviscerating everything
shammer will stick to the tory spending plans
we will not move forward to somewhere better with shammer in number ten

 

[NoXion]

carbon capture - because that's been so hugely successful so far

What's the measure of success? Because my impression from listening to the climate apocalypse fanclub is that nothing is good enough.

 

[danny la rouge]

hardly inspiring

Hardly inspiring! He literally said: “There’s too many immigrants in the NHS”. And “Longer sentences for protesters.”

Stuck in the desert, I wouldn’t make a splint for my broken leg from a snake.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I'd eat my own leg rather than vote for him.

 

[prunus]

do you know, this is exactly what people were saying in 1997.
and you mean you hope it won't be as bad as the utter shower of shite currently eviscerating everything
shammer will stick to the tory spending plans
we will not move forward to somewhere better with shammer in number ten

If someone's view is that Tony Blair's government wasn't better than continuing Tory rule, then well might as well just give up then.

My own view is that it was enormously better, in so many ways. Most of which have been dismantled now and will have to be labouriously rebuilt, again. It's what the Tories do - they destroy. They have to go. If anyone has any practical ideas of how to do that that don't involve voting Labour (in most of the country anyway) then I'd really like to hear them.

 

[prunus]

Hardly inspiring! He literally said: “There’s too many immigrants in the NHS”. And “Longer sentences for protesters.”

Stuck in the desert, I wouldn’t make a splint for my broken leg from a snake.

I'd eat my own leg rather than vote for him.

Ok, well, we have to hope that not too many anti-tories hold similar views, or it's continued Tory rule for us. And to be clear - I think that's worse.

 

[danny la rouge]

Ok, well, we have to hope that not too many anti-tories hold similar views, or it's continued Tory rule for us. And to be clear - I think that's worse.

I think Truss was worse than Sunak. Still wouldn’t cause me to vote for Sunak.

 

[Pickman's model]

If someone's view is that Tony Blair's government wasn't better than continuing Tory rule, then well might as well just give up then.

My own view is that it was enormously better, in so many ways. Most of which have been dismantled now and will have to be labouriously rebuilt, again. It's what the Tories do - they destroy. They have to go. If anyone has any practical ideas of how to do that that don't involve voting Labour (in most of the country anyway) then I'd really like to hear them.

Better for who? Do you think the world would be as it is if Iraq and afghanistan hadn't been invaded? Do you think daesh would have slaughtered hundreds in Europe or many thousands in the middle east? That millions would have been displaced? Jesus Mary and Joseph will you not look at the fucking world and give Blair his due credit

 

[emanymton]

People who are calling for a #GeneralElectionNOW need to address this stuff. The anti immigrant rhetoric, the “arrest protesters” chat, his personal connections with private healthcare concerns, the anti working class neoliberalism… What are we supporting here? Him literally just not being Sunak?

I'm not calling for a general election now or anything like that and Stammer is about a appealing as a bowl of rancid piss.

But it is like when Johnson/Truss were being forced out and people (rightly) argued it makes no difference we will get someone just as bad or worse. But for me at least there are 2 things this misses.

The first is that if we are going to he fucked over whatever at least let me laugh at one of these fucks along the way.

The more serious point is that no matter how tiny I want the idea that there is some accountability for these cunts, and there actions, to persist. That Johnson can't do whatever he wants with no consequences that a government can't just tank the economy became of some insane ideology and carry on.

It is woefully inadequate and the replacement is no better, but I want that over them just being able to do whatever the fuck they want and everyone just shrugs their shoulders.

 

[DotCommunist]

no way I'm voting for whites-first trans baiting reactionary authoritarian starmer. I'm in a tory aeturnum in this town anyway so it makes no odds to the wider poll

 

[prunus]

Better for who? Do you think the world would be as it is if Iraq and afghanistan hadn't been invaded? Do you think daesh would have slaughtered hundreds in Europe or many thousands in the middle east? That millions would have been displaced? Jesus Mary and Joseph wi you not look at the fucking world and give Blair his due credit

Yes there were some bad things done. But there were also some good things. The same is true even of say David Cameron's govt, but (IMO) the ratio between them was better weighted under Tony Blair than eg Cameron, or any other Tory since the 70s at least, and probably ever.

eg

According to one study, in terms of promoting social equality, the first Blair Government "turned out to be the most redistributive in decades; it ran Harold Wilson's 1960s' government close." From 1997 to 2005, for instance, all the benefits targeted on children through Tax Credits, Child Benefit and Income Support had gone up by 72% in real terms. Improvements were also made in financial support to pensioners, and by 2004, the poorest third of pensioners were £1,750 a year better off than under the system as it used to be. As a means of reducing energy costs and therefore the incidence of fuel poverty, a new programme of grants for cavity wall and loft insulation and for draught proofing was launched, with some 670,000 homes taking up the scheme. Various adjustments were also made in social welfare benefits. Families were allowed to earn a little more before Housing Benefit was cut, and the benefit was raised for families where the main earner worked part-time, while 2,000,000 pensioners were offered automatic help with their council tax bills, worth £400 each, although many did not take advantage of this benefit. According to one study, the Blair ministry's record on benefits, taken in the round, was "unprecedented", with 3.7% real terms growth each year from 2002 to 2005

Sound like something the Tories would ever ever do?

(source wiki - there's a load of other stuff on there about the good things done, as well as the bad: Premiership of Tony Blair - Wikipedia )

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes there were some bad things done. But there were also some good things. The same is true even of say David Cameron's govt, but (IMO) the ratio between them was better weighted under Tony Blair than eg Cameron, or any other Tory since the 70s at least, and probably ever.

eg



Sound like something the Tories would ever ever do?

(source wiki - there's a load of other stuff on there about the good things done, as well as the bad: Premiership of Tony Blair - Wikipedia )

you weigh foreigners' lives very light.

and the roots of today's instability - at a time when to successfully deal with climate change we need all the stability we can get - go back to the doors of two men, one of whom you lionise.

 

[Chz]

It is a bit depressing that the Blair government is both horrific and yet still the best government of the past 50 years.

 

[two sheds]

What's the measure of success? Because my impression from listening to the climate apocalypse fanclub is that nothing is good enough.

Are there any large-scale installations yet? Perhaps it's moved on but for years it's been promised as the solution to burning fossil fuels but there were no actual installations. It seemed mainly to be highlighted in answer to criticisms of fossil fuels in the spirit of "ah yes but carbon capture will solve that". It's saving about 0.1% of global emissions at the moment which is more than I'd thought, but I think the climate apocalypse fanclub would prefer to see investments in renewables and infrastructure to even out the peaks and troughs.

 

[prunus]

you weigh foreigners' lives very light.

and the roots of today's instability - at a time when to successfully deal with climate change we need all the stability we can get - go back to the doors of two men, one of whom you lionise.

I do not lionise him, as I thought I'd made clear. I think he was better than the Tories. Not great, but did some things I consider important, socially and redistributively.

I'd love a proper left wing government. I don't see any way I'm going to get one. So I want the Tories out in the meantime. The current option for doing that is Starmer's Labour.

 

[NoXion]

Are there any large-scale installations yet? Perhaps it's moved on but for years it's been promised as the solution to burning fossil fuels but there were no actual installations. It seemed mainly to be highlighted in answer to criticisms of fossil fuels in the spirit of "ah yes but carbon capture will solve that". It's saving about 0.1% of global emissions at the moment which is more than I'd thought, but I think the climate apocalypse fanclub would prefer to see investments in renewables and infrastructure to even out the peaks and troughs.

My impression as a non-specialist is that carbon capture is most effectively used as an additional step in already existing CO2-generating processes, rather than building dedicated facilities for the purpose. Concrete also absorbs CO2 but the hippies don't like that one either.

 

[Pickman's model]

I do not lionise him, as I thought I'd made clear. I think he was better than the Tories. Not great, but did some things I consider important, socially and redistributively.

I'd love a proper left wing government. I don't see any way I'm going to get one. So I want the Tories out in the meantime. The current option for doing that is Starmer's Labour.

so, yes, a million dead and millions displaced but he wasn't all bad

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It is a bit depressing that the Blair government is both horrific and yet still the best government of the past 50 years.

I'm going to say 40 years. For all its many faults, the Wilson/Callaghan govt at least paid lip service to the notion that the rich are too rich and there needs to be redistribution of wealth. Also didn't start any wars.

 

[two sheds]

My impression as a non-specialist is that carbon capture is most effectively used as an additional step in already existing CO2-generating processes, rather than building dedicated facilities for the purpose. Concrete also absorbs CO2 but the hippies don't like that one either.

Indeed, you'd mainly use them for capturing CO2 from industrial processes, but still 0.1% isn't a huge amount. Concrete absorbs CO2 but I thought only a fifth of the CO2 released during manufacture so a problem rather than a solution. Hippies also admittedly aren't keen on the cement dust, either.

 

[Pickman's model]

My impression as a non-specialist is that carbon capture is most effectively used as an additional step in already existing CO2-generating processes, rather than building dedicated facilities for the purpose. Concrete also absorbs CO2 but the hippies don't like that one either.

yeh the sand mining's a bit shit too.

 

[prunus]

so, yes, a million dead and millions displaced but he wasn't all bad

Inherent in this argument is the idea that had Major (or Tories in general) remained in power they wouldn't have joined in with the US in the same way. I believe they would have. Do you believe they wouldn't? Because that does change the assessment.

So as far as I can see the options are (were) a) Tories - doing the bad thing* and b) Labour - doing the same bad thing but also some good things. It'd be lovely if there were some other options, but there aren't.

I choose b.

* and probably some other bad things, but that is my bias - I assume Tories are evil.

 

[Chz]

I'm going to say 40 years. For all its many faults, the Wilson/Callaghan govt at least paid lip service to the notion that the rich are too rich and there needs to be redistribution of wealth. Also didn't start any wars.

In their intent, and up to the mid-point of their time, certainly. But they have the stigma of not leaving the country in a better place than they found it. Even post banking crisis, the UK was in a better place in 2010 than it was in 1997.