Just Stop Oil

[hash tag]

Speaking of right to protest, penalties etc. some might find this interesting. Views from either side

File on 4 - On Trial: Protestors versus the Law - BBC Sounds

Is the freedom to protest under threat from new laws and tougher treatment in the courts?

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Rob Ray]

Couldn't finish it, I was getting too annoyed at the rampantly disingenous lines from the people defending injunctions and jail time. The suggestion that breaking the law is a de facto moral wrong is bonkers, the idea they should leave it to democracy when no serious voting option exists in first past the post to support their aims is utterly bogus and the pretence that it's more reasonable to compare their actions to robbing a house than, eg. stopping a serial killer is pathetic.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Meanwhile the Caribbean is still reeling from a massive hurricane that is, a: far, far earlier in the season than usual for one of such ferocious intensity and, b: far further south than usual. Both of which are demonstrably due to the Atlantic being significantly hotter than in the past. This is a same Caribbean that is plagued by massive levels of Sargassum for the exact same reason. Still, some folk who caused a few traffic jams are doing porridge, so onwards we march...

 

[Sasaferrato]

Has there ever been a case of legislation being changed as a result of the actions of unhinged self aggrandising extremists?

I wouldn't have jailed the M25 idiots. I would have them in a camp on Salisbury Plain, spending their days digging holes in the morning and filling them in again in the afternoon, if they wanted to be fed.

As a result of their actions people missed operations and appointments, funerals, holiday flights etc. No one no matter what their beliefs has the right to disrupt the lives of thousands of people. Perhaps the sentences that have been dished out will make others think twice before acting like complete arseholes.

</grumpyoldman>

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Has there ever been a case of legislation being changed as a result of the actions of unhinged self aggrandising extremists?

Gandhi threatened to starve himself if the British didn't fuck off out of India, and that worked, so yes.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Has there ever been a case of legislation being changed as a result of the actions of unhinged self aggrandising extremists?

I wouldn't have jailed the M25 idiots. I would have them in a camp on Salisbury Plain, spending their days digging holes in the morning and filling them in again in the afternoon, if they wanted to be fed.

As a result of their actions people missed operations and appointments, funerals, holiday flights etc. No one no matter what their beliefs has the right to disrupt the lives of thousands of people. Perhaps the sentences that have been dished out will make others think twice before acting like complete arseholes.

</grumpyoldman>

Ireland is a republic now

 

[DotCommunist]

Chartism was defeated but the state lost a deal of legitimacy at peterloo, which preceded the movement I think, when it became widely known of. And would you know that in the following years almost all the chartist demands were taken up, save yearly elections. I'd have them. You have one yr to prove you are genuine. Bung takers and corporate yes men would have less purchase if their sponsors knew they could be swiftly removed.

apparently marx called the chartist leader 'Citizen Hurrah hurrah' and that was not meant kindly, trivia fans

 

[Sasaferrato]

Gandhi threatened to starve himself if the British didn't fuck off out of India, and that worked, so yes.

I think there was a wee bit more to it than that.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Chartism was defeated but the state lost a deal of legitimacy at peterloo when it became widely known of. And would you know that in the following years almost all the chartist demands were taken up, save yearly elections. I'd have them. You have one yr to prove you are genuine. Bung takers and corporate yes men would have less purchase if their sponsors knew they could be swiftly removed.

apparently marx called the chartist leader 'Citizen Hurrah hurrah' and that was not meant kindly, trivia fans

I read somewhere that Ancient Greek politicians were elected for a year, and finances audited before and after. Shortfalls were life shortening.

 

[Rob Ray]

unhinged self aggrandising extremists

I do get sick and tired of this shit.

They aren't "unhinged." If you're taking climate change science seriously it's absolutely terrifying stuff and while you can certainly disagree with their strategy the urgency and understanding that business as usual will kill people, demanding extraordinary measures in response, is not in any way unwarranted. Frankly in many ways society is acting in a more unhinged fashion than they are.

Self-agrandising? Yeah possibly some of them, but it's a silly blanket to throw over everyone involved. Some are, quite clearly, entirely sincere and understand quite well that far from standing to gain anything they are risking both jail time and their future careers for the cause.

As for extremist, please do fuck right off. The police do more extreme shit than them on the daily. More extreme things happen every Friday night. Their demands aren't unreasonable. They're not beheading anybody, or even handing out light beatings. It's outrageous to apply the term which comes directly before "terrorist" to completely non-violent activism deployed in a reasonable cause.

Seriously you sound absolutely pathetic saying stuff like that, it's culled direct from shrill tabloid propagandists with zero brain involved between eyeball and keyboard.

 

[Karl Masks]

will these sentences stand on appeal?

 

[barlimo]

Has there ever been a case of legislation being changed as a result of the actions of unhinged self aggrandising extremists?

I wouldn't have jailed the M25 idiots. I would have them in a camp on Salisbury Plain, spending their days digging holes in the morning and filling them in again in the afternoon, if they wanted to be fed.

As a result of their actions people missed operations and appointments, funerals, holiday flights etc. No one no matter what their beliefs has the right to disrupt the lives of thousands of people. Perhaps the sentences that have been dished out will make others think twice before acting like complete arseholes.

</grumpyoldman>

Absurd sentence, totally over the top, a much shorer t would have been more than adequate.

will these sentences stand on appeal?

I hope not.

 

[hash tag]

Has there ever been a case of legislation being changed as a result of the actions of unhinged self aggrandising extremists?

I think my first urban question was does direct action work. Yes, it ended apartheid in South Africa.
What is the biggest crime? Adding to global warming or defending it? People need to listen sometimes and politicians are not very good at making people listen. There are still people attacking Sadiq Khan for ULEZ and like wise people of Wales attacking the 20 limit. Time will tell and hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

As a result of their actions people missed operations and appointments, funerals, holiday flights etc.

This is a good bit, fucking loads of operations, funerals etc., none at all during the Queen's funeral or sausage fingers' coronation, both of which shut down the whole of central London for an entire day at a time. Just, you know, one of them weird coincides and that...

 

[lazythursday]

Has there ever been a case of legislation being changed as a result of the actions of unhinged self aggrandising extremists?

I wouldn't have jailed the M25 idiots. I would have them in a camp on Salisbury Plain, spending their days digging holes in the morning and filling them in again in the afternoon, if they wanted to be fed.

As a result of their actions people missed operations and appointments, funerals, holiday flights etc. No one no matter what their beliefs has the right to disrupt the lives of thousands of people. Perhaps the sentences that have been dished out will make others think twice before acting like complete arseholes.

</grumpyoldman>

It's not about 'beliefs'. It's about the science of what we are doing to the atmosphere that will cause unfathomable suffering.

Did you know that the UN Secretary General has used language as strong as 'humanity has opened the gates to hell' about the climate crisis? (I know, because I was made to remove the quote from a report about climate recently, because it just wasn't positive enough...)

Do you have kids, grandkids Sass? Do you realise how likely it is that they will suffer food shortages? That the nice civilised world you are used to will just fall to bits under pressure of coping with 3 degrees of heating? But god someone might have missed a fucking flight.

 

[klang]

Absurd sentence, totally over the top, a much shorer t would have been more than adequate.

What length prison sentence do you think would have been adequate?

 

[Karl Masks]

Do you have kids, grandkids Sass? Do you realise how likely it is that they will suffer food shortages? That the nice civilised world you are used to will just fall to bits under pressure of coping with 3 degrees of heating? But god someone might have missed a fucking flight.

This is of course true to say,
But for many working class, including those stuck on the m25 while Roger Hallam was stroking his weird ego, they already suffer food shortages. Massive increases in now overstretched charities, that offer pitiful nutrition in substitition. Cost of living exploded and irredeemable while wages stagnate. Benefit caps that not even Starmer, the adult in the room, will repeal. How can we be anything but sympathetic to such people if (and this is not to generalise) they can't see such broad, global, concerns. How does blocking roads or dousing stonehenge or wimbledon court 1, in sherbert help? NO wonder the press has a field day ridiculing these people

 

[redsquirrel]

A member of the Socialist Party speaks.

 

[hash tag]

How does blocking roads or dousing stonehenge or wimbledon court 1, in sherbert help? NO wonder the press has a field day ridiculing these people

It helps keep it in the news, on the agenda, in the minds eye and if it gets people talking about it....
A suspended sentence was more than enough. "We" are trying to free up space in prisons, not stretch it with a few protesters.

 

[lazythursday]

This is of course true to say,
But for many working class, including those stuck on the m25 while Roger Hallam was stroking his weird ego, they already suffer food shortages. Massive increases in now overstretched charities, that offer pitiful nutrition in substitition. Cost of living exploded and irredeemable while wages stagnate. Benefit caps that not even Starmer, the adult in the room, will repeal. How can we be anything but sympathetic to such people if (and this is not to generalise) they can't see such broad, global, concerns. How does blocking roads or dousing stonehenge or wimbledon court 1, in sherbert help? NO wonder the press has a field day ridiculing these people

I'm ambivalent about the tactics. But please suggest something better because the threat is enormous and the level of action truly pitiful. Pretty much anything is justified at this point. JSO etc are just people screaming 'what the fuck?' at society. The fact that some people are already suffering does not mean we should just sit back and let that be magnified a hundred-fold. Of course we have to fight for the here and now as well.

 

[Elpenor]

I’m personally more offended by the members of the public who assaulted the JSO protestors because they had to wait for a few minutes in their precious car

 

[barlimo]

What length prison sentence do you think would have been adequate?

I think something like 6 - 12 months would have been enough.

 

[Sasaferrato]

It's not about 'beliefs'. It's about the science of what we are doing to the atmosphere that will cause unfathomable suffering.

Did you know that the UN Secretary General has used language as strong as 'humanity has opened the gates to hell' about the climate crisis? (I know, because I was made to remove the quote from a report about climate recently, because it just wasn't positive enough...)

Do you have kids, grandkids Sass? Do you realise how likely it is that they will suffer food shortages? That the nice civilised world you are used to will just fall to bits under pressure of coping with 3 degrees of heating? But god someone might have missed a fucking flight.

I was going to reply, but I really can't be arsed.

 

[Karl Masks]

It helps keep it in the news, on the agenda, in the minds eye and if it gets people talking about it....
A suspended sentence was more than enough. "We" are trying to free up space in prisons, not stretch it with a few protesters.

Well that's the argument. But does it hold up in practice? That is to say, if the only way people see it is in association with bad faith press and bad faith argumentation, then that message risks being seen in the wrong light. People will thus draw the conclusion that JSO aren't helping humanity, but just a bunch of 'professional protesters' getting in the way. It's hard to see a connection between chucking jigsaw over a tennis court and the industrialised destruction of our climate. If that connection was there then the bad faith reporting would have less traction.

 

[hash tag]

Any press is good press. Some will see it in a bad light, will discuss it with friends, family and colleagues and thus the debate continues and other people start thinking about it
A notoriously right wing opinionated colleague at work today, unprompted, said the sentences were harsh.

 

[PR1Berske]

 

[PR1Berske]

 

[Artaxerxes]

Any press is good press. Some will see it in a bad light, will discuss it with friends, family and colleagues and thus the debate continues and other people start thinking about it
A notoriously right wing opinionated colleague at work today, unprompted, said the sentences were harsh.

the CEO of Crowdstrike likes this

 

[mojo pixy]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, when climate change really starts to bite (it hasn't yet, but it will) those disruptions and casualties will make this shit look like the puppy playtime it is. No number of prison sentences for protesters is going to change that; on the other hand, doing the kinds of things XR and JSO etc insist needs to be done, might just mitigate it, a tiny bit.

It'd at least be something rather than nothing. But at the moment it looks as if we'd prefer catastrophic infrastructure disruptions later more than insignificant ones now.

 

[redsquirrel]

People will thus draw the conclusion that JSO aren't helping humanity, but just a bunch of 'professional protesters' getting in the way. .

If "people" think this why did juries recognise JSOs arguments to such an extent that the government had to change the law and a judge go to extreme lengths to stop defendants making reasonable arguments.