Just got back from anti-war demo

[PatelsCornerShop]

Oh buggery.

NOW I remember you JWH. Sorry. It was the bike helmet. I'm one of these people who are awful with names but are OK with faces, but only when people aren't wearing bike helmets and things like that.

I'm also well-known for walking past people who I know quite well, and completely ignoring them, even if I'm looking in their direction. Sometimes even when they say something, I don't respond. Their presence simply doesn't register because I'm too busy thinking about other things. This would apply to people like my own family, for example.

Anyway, ta v much for breaking the sanctions.

[Edited to add]

And for the URLs too.

[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: PatelsCornerShop ]

 

[Nemo]

MoK, may I remind you that: a.) the number of people who have marched in opposition to the war far outweighs those who have marched in support; b.) the estimate of the numbers depends on who you believe; c.) most of the people on the march were from within the London area; d.) 20,000 is nearly four times the number who died in the WTC/Pentagon attacks so logically the war should stop; and d.) it is early in the war before there have been any UK casualties and adverse economic effects.

JWH, think I might have seen you, saw a couple of people with bikes coming in laughing, maybe around Picadilly, can't remember exactly where.

PEACE TO ALL!

 

[Man Of Kent]

Nemo, may I remind you that it is unusual to march in support of a Govt position. Haven't seen many marches to support outlawing of paedophilia, few marches call on the Govt to create an NHS (although many suggest that perhaps they should support one!), don't get meany marches suggesting that we should live in a capitalist society. The reason people son;t march for these is because there is no need, these things exist in some form or another.

Estimates are irrelevant if you are differing by a couple of thousand. If 200,000 had been on the march I would have been much more impressed and I think that the Big Grin would have taken some notice of you. But whether 20 or 30,000 turned up, it is still a tiny minority.

The fact that most on the march were from London gives a clue. I would even guess that many were from certain boroughs of London, because these areas tend to be more politically active, particularly for 'left wing' causes. I've no problem with that but you have to ask if the march was really representative if 20,000 (or so) people turned up and over half were from London anyway.

20,000 is nearly four times the number who died in the WTC/Pentagon attacks so logically the war should stop;

You'll have to explain this one for me. You surely don't mean that, because more people protested than died, there is no logical reason for the war to continue. As if it is only about numbers of people...

it is early in the war before there have been any UK casualties and adverse economic effects

Yep I agree here. Once the bodybags start appearing for Brits, you may find a change of heart, although I doubt it will be too significant. It didn't affect us in Iraq - if people believe in the cause they will fight and accept the deaths. How many died in WW2? The biggest question will be just how much people believe in the cause. As it stands now I suspect that the majority (and a large one) agree with current actions. Time will tell...

 

[spliff]

Well, I missed everyone I had plans on meeting due to lateness and a fucked up mobile.

I approached PCS in the square and everything looked right. (Iraqi dates, money to Afghanis). Are you PCS I said and was pointed towards an older white woman sharing the stall. Interesting, I thought! You never know, y'know. When her queue had dissapated I said are you PCS and she said NO! she was PSC. I said Patels...? Cornershop? And do you know what?? She gave me an 'old fashioned look'!! The very first time for me!

I DID meet Trigger(Roger Lloyd-Pack) but thats another story.

and i stayed dry for a change.


spliff xxx

 

[Nemo]

The fact remains MoK, that there is no proof that the majority of British people support the war, whereas there is irrefutable proof that over 20,000 people are opposed. As for the location of the marchers, if half were from London, that suggests that there must actually be a large number of opposed to the war.

"As if it is only about numbers of people..."

Then how comes we are reminded every day that 6,000 people are dead in New York? If numbers mean nothing then there is no point in bombing.

'Bush, Blair, CIA; how many kids have you killed today?'

PEACE TO ALL!

 

[johnwisehammer]

"As if it is only about numbers of people..."

S'funny, I keep hearing that killing a 'small' number of Afghans is a price worth paying in comparison to the lives which will be saved by the operation.

 

[elliot]

here's a few photos I took for uni, of the demo on the monday after the first bombing raids, outside downing street..
http://www.calne.org.uk/temporary/elliot/

elliot

 

[RaverDrew]

Aha Spliff! I saw you when you were at PatelsCornerShop, I was sitting down against the wall behind the stall, chilling out with a beer. I was gonna say hello, but I wasn't 100% sure it was you at the time.

[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: RaverDrew ]

 

[sheothebudworths]

Oh Spliff . I'm still chuckling. It could only happen to you!

 

[johnwisehammer]

"a fucked up mobile"

!

 

[Derek]

Man of Kent, people did not fully support World War II there was a small anti-war movement even then. When London was being blitzed morale did get low and people started demand an end to the war. World War II was unnecessary as the job of overthrowing the Nazis in Germany was the job of the German working class who were killed in their millions when the war started not some foreign imperialist army. Just as Milosivic was overthrown by the Serbian people after NATO had tried unsucessfuly to get rid of him by mass bombing of Serbia.

The reason that this war has so much public support is that the mainstream press are putting out pro war propaganda becuase the press is controlled by capitalists. The Vietnam war was initially popular as well though and it took two years of hard effort by anti-war campaigners to turn public opinion against that war.

 

[PatelsCornerShop]

Spliff.

Sorry about the mix-up. I had so many people ask for the PSC stall (or were they asking for me?) that I must've heard wrong. What did you look like?

The white-haired lady you are talking about is actually someone I know from the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign (PSC). She couldn't find her group and so I let her perch at the end of my stall. So we were briefly sharing for some time. Of course, I was behind the stall.

Oh dear. I've fucked up on introductions, and actually recognising people, haven't I?

[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: PatelsCornerShop ]

 

[William of Walworth]

HUGE respect to all and I'm ++really++ sorry I wasn't there. Lincoln is a beautiful city** but the people on this march were beautifuller -- all of you

Incidentally the next one, if a Saturday, would be Sat. 17th November. (Not 18th as has been stated -- but it might be planned for the Sunday??)

W of W

** Irrelevant PS : Except for the fact that
we lost Which makes going to the match instead of the march even more annoying. (Nice beer though)

[ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: William of Walworth ]

 

[orangeade]

The Vietnam war was initially popular as well though and it took two years of hard effort by anti-war campaigners to turn public opinion against that war.

-------Steelgate! Top post!

Great work PCS! Will you be at the next one in November (17/18)? Perhaps you should carry a badge or a small sandwich board?

 

[Termite Man]

The march was brilliant - nice whether , no arrests and a damn good cause . I'll expect to see all of you at the next demo!!

 

[well red]

JWH - sorry didn't make it to Critical Mass, I had a very fucked up morning and got hit by a bus on the way to the demo (the bus took more damage than me of course, cos I'm that hard), so I went straight to Hyde Park. Thanks again to Ali303 for the lend of your phone - sorry if I was a bit odd, I think I was still in post-bus incident shock. I was with the No War But Class War bunch most of the way, so I must have just missed you JWH.

It was a very nice day for a demo, can't think of many better things to do on a hot sunny day than reclaim the streets of Central London. I was amazed at the low-level policing of the march. I haven't heard quite that many tedious old farts making speeches for a long long time.

It was good to show that we don't support the war, but quite honestly I felt I was only there to make up numbers and the demo itself was never going to achieve anything in a million years. Ruby is right, this is just the start, and hopefully things will get more lively in the future. Janemonster - if all marches were like this we'd never achieve anything, its far too easy for the State and the rich to ignore popular opinion. To change things we have to push harder than this.

Man of Kent - "many were from certain boroughs of London, because these areas tend to be more politically active, particularly for 'left wing' causes." What does that mean? Surely you don't really believe that any London Council encourages its residents to become politically active? You've been reading the Daily Mail again, haven't you? Come on, own up!

 

[snooch]

cautious fred!
1,2,3,4 we don't want your racist war, 5,6,7,8 spend the money on the welfare state?

come off it mate? any idea what the welfare state actually does, for one it was designed during the world war when the top dogs realised that the men and women sent out to fight and work, wer'ny fit enough to do so, designed to establish half descent cannon fodder. and secondly it's the next step towards complete totalitarianism, the welfare state is there to make us relie unquestionally to the state and at the same time be completely monitored through out our lives, nothing is private, i would seriously reckomend you read something on it mate, before you shout sloggans like that man.

 

[William of Walworth]

I live in a council flat. If it wasn't for the welfare state I and many others wouldn't be.

If it wasn't for the NHS I'd have been dead before I was 20.

Bottom line. Cut the crap. More money on housing and welfare sounds a perfectly good idea to me!

W of W

 

[snooch]

you didn't get the point, WE can establish Better sytems than any of the bueracratic wankers who run this particular part of the system. you ask any nurse, and they#'ll tell you that they can not do their jobs effectively because of the red tape. their idea's and innitiatives are gagged and silenced and to be honest mate, this country is with no doubt, following the states in privatising everything, the privellage of using the system for free is not gonna be their for much longer. the welfare state ain't something to be that proud of, WE CAN DO MUCH MUCH BETTER, if we allowed the proffesionals to run their jobs.

 

[William of Walworth]

Perhaps we could do much better -- in Utopia.

In the real world, real actually existing pragmatiuc reality and post war history, if it wasn't for the welfare state (whose limitations, bureacracy and faults I am FULLY aware of) then the NHS and council housing wouldn't be here and a whole lot of people far worse off than I am, would be even worse off than that.

W of W

 

[snooch]

still not getting the point, seriously read up on the history of the welfare system, i can't remeber everything i read, but seriously it ain't as good as it's cracked up to be, and no i'm not talking utopian rhetoric thanks, how quickly you forget, where it was only a couple of decades ago when this entire country was at a standstill with thousands of employee's refusing to work, political activity and history is all around us, to forget that is a serious error. with the way things are going it won't be too long when we see thhis country at a stand still once again, you only have to look back at what happend at the petrol stations late last year. wake up! seriously promise me you'll read something on the welfare state in relevance to its political significance.

 

[well red]

WoW - the Welfare State was the bare minimum provided by the State to keep everyone happy when millions of pissed off and well-armed men came back after the war expecting something better than when they went off to fight. Its better that its there, than not there, and its only there because the State feared us, but its not the victory you make out it is.

 

[snooch]

thankyou well red! i was getting a bit lost, me head is still a bit hazy from the weekend.

 

[William of Walworth]

I'm not saying it's a victory as such, I just think we should not forget what it would be like without it. I'd be with anyone who aims to cure its faults (which as I said, I'm very aware of) but to argue agaisnt its existence which snooch seemed to be close to doing, is insane unless s/he's VERY confident that he has something workable IN PRACTICE to put in its place. It's been fucked around with and trimmed to the bone by successive governments and authorities, but I'm glad its still there. That's not the same as celebrating it (although the NHS saving your life does tend to influence you a bit!), just that I don't want it to be swept away.

W of W

[ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: William of Walworth ]

 

[snooch]

HE'S not arguing it out of existence, sorry i've been very tetchy today, i didn't mean to come across as being bolshy, what i meant was that it really ain't all that it's cracked up to be, the important members of the system, the nurses and docters etc, need to unionise beyond the grip of the bueracrat's unfortunately, and what has happend in the past is that any "radical" out spoken member of staff is often penalised and refused promaotion and is often gagged, only once a relatively stable condition where real unions become more established can the welfare system ever achieve and grow beyond its original manifesto. sorry i didn't mean to fall out over this.
loads of love Snooch x

 

[calico]

Yeah, a great day out I thought. Good atmosphere and very inspiring. It was interesting to hear the chants change chinese whispers style through the demo! The police were obviously completely overwhelmed.

If the demo had been organised by a socialist/radical group instead of the prodominantly middle class, middleaged, female CND I think their would be a lot more riot sheilds/cameras/vans about. With that many people and so few cops we could have stormed whitehall without a hitch!

 

[William of Walworth]

I'll try? and be there next time. Hope it's Sunday 18th : for lamentable reasons, that would be easier for me than the Saturday!

(Or even better : hope it's unnecessary by the 18th, but this is unlikely I spose)

No worries snooch

 

[Nemo]

It's the Sunday W of W (18th?). I'll be there.

PEACE TO ALL!

 

[Cautious Fred]

Snooch - on a demo, the chant: "1-2-3-4, we don't want your racist war! 5-6-7-8, spend the money on the welfare state!", is meant to contrast the obscene amounts of money spent on war with the money spent on things that benefit ordinary people, namely the NHS, council housing, social security etc.

There always seems to be billions found for war, yet we're constantly told there are not enough funds to cut waiting lists and times, to build new hospitals in the public sector, to afford the newest drugs etc. This contrast reveals where the real interests of our rulers lie - not with ordinary people, but with enforcing their own power.

The welfare state was a real step forward. Well Red is correct in saying that this was a concession the ruling class were forced to make to ordinary people after WWII. Quentin Hogg (later Lord Hailsham who died the other day) spoke for the ruling class when he said at the time: "We'll give them social change, or they'll give us social revolution."

You're right to say that the welfare state is not perfect, but wrong to say that it's it's "the next step towards complete totalitarianism" (!). Are you suggesting that we shouldn't defend the welfare state? Surely what we don't want is a system like they have in the States where most health care is private, run by huge profit-making companies. Attempts to introduce even very limited reforms in the US were thwarted by big business, even though the present system is MORE expensive than a publically funded health system.

But perhaps one of the most important things about the welfare state is that it can provide a focus around which ordinary people can fight. Defending what little we have can reveal what real strength workers, ordinary people have, and this has the potential to spill over into real gains for the working class.

[ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: Cautious Fred ]

 

[ali303]

great to see mr and mrs zeedoodles, family jane/cliffchuff, and patels fantastic sanctions-busting corner shop.
no worries bout the phone well red - always a pleasure. and raver drew i hope you got home ok and sunday delivered a righteous harvest.

all in all a superb day. topmarks to weather, samba band, fantastic vibe and everyone who turned up. it can only get bigger