I'm new here from NYC, thoughts about the "War"

[johnwisehammer]

Well, yeah, I see what you mean Apollo Child, and I know the Tourette's Syndrome thing wasn't going to fly but I just sort of meant - well, yeah, I see.

One thing though:

"What sparkling wit his sermon *may* have had more than likely fizzled throughout the middle and toward the end like a flat beer; stale, tasteless, & ultimately ineffective."

I think this sentence makes much more sense if you replace the word "sermon" with "semen" as I accidentally (Freudianly?) did when I first read it!

 

[child apollo]

LMAO!

That's it; I'm taking a smoking break.

 

[rasrave]

Wow, a couple of days off and lots of stuff to read...
tribal: sorry for your pain...nothing else to add to that...
Grasshopper: The point about lessening the debate due to the language...I mentioned that one when I first started posting here and got laughed at!! (in fact, by the same people saying "he deserved to get flamed because he was rude to us") Sadly, you don't have to go too far to see where tribal might have picked up some of his colorful expressions...you only have to scroll down to the next reply to understand ("fucking sad right wing twats" is the one, I believe)
Rorymac: In regards to your comment above ("fucking sad..."), I always know when your posts appear, because (and I have looked) they are never longer than 4 lines (your record so far), they usually say nothing, but say it rudely, and they always involve patting someone else on the back for what they have said...if we go by the "circle-jerk" theory that was tossed about (oh please) here earlier, you would have to be the one watching, only hoping that you could do like everyone else...don't worry, a couple more years, the old balls will drop, and you can join in with the rest of us ...in the meantime, keep going to school so you can throw in a few "big words" like all the other posters here
I never mind arguing with anyone on this thread, but most of them (even though I may not agree with them ) can put together a sentence, a point, or even a link (yes Patel, I go to them, because I like learning new things too!). So Nemo, JWH, Patel, and many others, keep on posting...
Phew...carpal tunnel...

 

[rorymac]

yeah but do you know how long it takes me to type 4 lines? i do my best.

 

[mobymonster]

Quote" fucking sad right wing twats. " that sums up what you say and do to people that have a different opinion an almost total intolerence to anything that doesn't tow your "party" line.

mobymonster

LOVE, LIGHT AND PEACE TO ALL

 

[FridgeMagnet]

It's pretty much impossible to write anything about a post of such ridiculous self-important length, and many other people have got there first, but

Boys and girls, we are all going to be touched by this, and we will all have to choose sides. I don't think we'll get to fence sit this one. Well, I'm comfortable with my choice.

And I'm comfortable with mine, comfortable that it's on the side of rational thought and behaviour. Perhaps amidst the Nietzschian notions of arctic wolf-packs, which I'm sure you are intimately familiar with, some examination of motives might be useful.

Opposition to revenge attacks has a basis both in ethics and expediency - they are both wrong and stupid. If you can tell us how the current war in Afghanistan will in any sense help the sum total of human happiness, I'd be very interested to hear it.

 

[rorymac]

sorry dudes,
like j-bob said, your belief system is shoved down our throats day after day ad nauseum. i come on these boards because it's a very welcome relief to associate with other like minded souls. it's a human inclination i fancy. it's not all up each other's asses (i believe you might say) but very often extremely intelligent debating much of which i can and do merely admire. this includes right v left, capitalism v socialism etc etc, slack jawed yokelism v reason ok? so fuck off fuckwit.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Why do I post here? Good question; it's not something I have done before, in any chat room.

The amateur psychologists have it right, I am probably trying selfishly to work out difficult feelings and emotions brought about by Sept. 11.

Thankfully, I am not boring you much, as Apollo has confirmed what I already suspected. People here attack one another's ideas, without fully reading what the other has said. That's not unusual for people, but it's sad that some of you people, who appear to put so much stock in reason, debate and diplomacy to solve the world's problems, do not take the time to understand what another says, before returning to restate your own opinion.

If we on this board are unable to listen and actually respond to one another, how much hope is there that people like Bush and OBL, or whole nations with complex histories of conflict, will be able to talk through their differences.

I have attempted to stimulate debate, sometimes with failing humor, sometimes through the use of hyperbole and overstatement. I have become angry and insulting, partly because I was pissed off and wanted to insult, partly because I wanted to see the creativity of your own mudslinging.

My intention was to act as the sand in the oyster shell, to see if any of you could produce mother of pearl of sufficient lustre to convince me of the rectitude of your beliefs.

If all of us who disagree with you were to leave, you would be left with the echo of your own thoughts repeated endlessly through different mouths. Is that what you want? What would be the point?

My pseudonym is a term used by Brits mostly, but also Americans, to describe Canadian WWII soldiers, who were in general, young, green, eager, and uninformed.

Apollo, I mean your mother no harm. I responded as I did because your comment that the New Yorkers, etc. were being too "theatrical" in their response to the deaths of their fellow citizens. I was trying to give you an example that might have more emotional meaning to you, as opposed to what amounts to a hypothetical construct viewed on the TV. I felt that you were being unfair to those who were 'taking it personally', and I was asking you, in my inflammatory way, how you would respond if you were personally touched by a similar tragedy.

Hipipol, you sound like a reasonable person.

I have tried, likely failed, to put forth two messages:

1.Many of you harbor prejudice, half knowledge, and illogic. Welcome to the club: so do I. Possibly, through debate, people can help each other overcome these shortcomings. I hope you can recognize that you too are fallible; I hope that you are still willing to learn, and to question the ideas that you hold dear.

2.All issues of right and wrong, historical justification or not, etc. aside, the United States is in an angry, black mood. This is a real situation that will be ignored at the world's peril. A wholesome Canadian analogy would involve a hiker walking in the woods at night, and coming across a bear. No matter how much of a good person you are, no matter how intelligent you are, no matter how much you deserve to live, you are now alone, in the woods, with a bear. It is a stong animal, and, for some trespass that will not be communicated nor understood, it appears to be unreasonably upset with you.

Time to work; perhaps we will debate world history at a later time.

 

[kissthecat]

We are all fed a load of shite from day one on this planet. Much of it is ingrained in us and though we fight it it is still there. I admit that for myself.

Having said that I have to say this. There are too many fucking analogies here already. Here's one. Imagine you came to my place and started a little analogy for my simple mind OK? Imagine you sitting there with your bear cub and I go to the kitchen and take out a big knife....and you were ignoring me not realising you were at peril (cute word that PERIL)[cue music, shower scene from psycho]

Damn! I'm watching too many violent movies from the land of the free home of the brave.

edited to add music

[ 16 October 2001: Message edited by: kissthecat ]

 

[Johnny Canuck]

"Gee, I think I'm gonna miss you the most, Cowardly Lion!"

 

[grasshopper]

Rasrave- you have a talent for taking things out of context.

I will try and phrase this next one so that there is no possibility of ambiguity.

I am not ( and cannot) speak for the board, but you are an offensive person who happens to be of American extraction. You lack the ability to debate reasonably, and then you wonder why this board tackles you on the issues you raise?

Were you to visit my house, I would welcome you with open arms.

Were you to visit my house (with the knowledge) that you were a warmongering, anti-humanistic piece of shit - I would turn you away.

I hope this clarifies things

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Damn - wasn't going to post for awhile, but things keep changing...

Latest news: Seven-month-old child of ABC News employee recently contracted anthrax on a visit to the mailroom. Child was hemorrhaging and close to death.

No, children shouldn't die in Afghanistan either, but surely you will agree that spreading death with infected letters must be one of the low points for us human beings. Even if the Palestinian cause, or any cause, is moral, it cannot justify this.

Is this how Jihad is fought?

 

[TopCat2]

Canuk, your country and mine both manufactured anthrax for use in killing others should they so wish...Don't start giving it the large one about your moral superiority ok?

Hipipol, don't include me in you "we stand together with the usa" ok?

 

[PatelsCornerShop]

Johnny-boy.

No. Again, you've taken a term which you know not the meaning of (use google.com please and do some basic research) and used it to jump to conclusions about an event that even as we speak, is being investigated.

I repeat - if it turns out that it was another Timothy McVeigh or Unabomber who was behind all this, will you be jumping up and down for the States to be bombed for harbouring Christian extremists?

Or were you the one jumping up and down and pointing fingers at Muslims when the Oklahoma bomb went off?

Or are you simply too thick to realise how inconsistent and illogical you're being?

PS. Were you one of the people jumping up and down when Israel killed Palestinian children like Mohammed Al-Durra? I bet you were saying that it was all the fault of that nasty Jihad, weren't you, and that Mohammed deserved it.

[ 16 October 2001: Message edited by: PatelsCornerShop ]

 

[William of Walworth]

From one of Mr Canuck's earlier posts :

"I hate to interrupt a good circle jerk, but damn! I'm hoping to reach you before your faces become totally frozen"

Go on, you love us, really, don't you? you just love us! You say the above, but then you have the gall to criticise people here for taking umbrage with the arrogance and abusivesness of people like Otto, Darin and Tribal!

Mobymonster :

"Quote" fucking sad right wing twats. " that sums up what you say and do to people that have a different opinion an almost total intolerence to anything that doesn't tow your "party" line"

Suggest you read the posts here PROPERLY instead of through a mirage of hate, also suggest you check the abusiveness and ignorance of tribal's initial post, then give it a bleedin rest with the "party line identikit opinions intolerant and censorious of others views" BOLLOCKS, man. If you must parrot "opinions" lifted straight from the troll manual, try and make them a bit more original and imaginatively phrased than that old cobweb growing cliche ridden old cobblers.

I'm with hatboy, I have less to say about the issues (which are being covered admirably, anyway) than the sometimes depressing "debating" (?) style of this thread. A lot of these posts are saying a lot more about the poster than the subject, no doubt that includes myself but it seems to apply much more to Tribal, Man of Kent, Gary Jenkins (completely by the way, Jenkins, I haven't forgotten your post on Stephen Lawrence, and you never explained what you were getting at THEN, either) and our pleasant and polite pal Johnny Canuck.

Respect to JWH and PCS and hipipol and bezzer, apollo child Nemo and others (keep on toeing the party line folks who put forward thoughtful points and don't make sweeping assumptions.

W of W

[ 16 October 2001: Message edited by: William of Walworth ]

 

[Nemo]

I will start by saying (before someone makes more unjust allegations), that I unreservedly and wholeheartedly condemn the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington last month and that my thoughts and sympathies are with the dead of those atrocities and their families.

JC, perhaps if you don't want people getting the wrong end of the stick, you shouldn't use language and imagery to such a degree as you have been doing. Yes, you have the right but you must think carefully about how to exercise your right.

Oh, I'm a sychophant now am I? FYI, one person dictates my opinions and that's me. I have no party line to toe and no desire to have one either.

PEACE TO ALL!

 

[calico]

Johnny, you are extreamy eloquent and poetic in your responses but that perhaps clouds what you are actualy tyring to say.

Try to be more analytical in your posts, rather than using cringing, and corny metaphores/analogies which makes you come across as a bit of a twat, truth be told.

The survival of the fittest eh Johnny? Wasn't it a certain Mr A. Hitler who used that as his excuse to kill millions of Jews, Gypies, Homosexuels, disabled and countless others who fell somwhat short of aryan ideals?

 

[ICB]

Tribal, I don't really have much to add that hasn't been said by the likes of JWH and many others on this and other threads.

However, perhaps when you make statements such as

"go fuck yourself, when they blow up your relatives and friends, then maybe you will understand"

you could consider the fact that many members here are from mainland Britain which has suffered in just the same way that has come as such an unpleasant shock to America recently. You could also consider the fact that a very large proportion of funding for these terrorist activities, including the killing of innocents, comes from your home city. In short, in the language of "US and them", your money killed our innocents. You can't accuse anyone here of the same.

Do your opinions have any flexibility or are you certain that you are right and everyone else is ignorant? Are we here to talk and learn or are we here to rant and hate?

 

[Tooter]

To Be honest guys.....i can see his point of view!!!

everyone on this site gets into deep meaningfull conversations, each person trying to prove how great they are at being witty and intellectual.

i don't think i have actually heard anyone with a sympathetic view to the actions of
the UK/US.
I mean if thios is an anti-war site....has anyone actually experienced war? or do you just sit at home and watch it on tv?

its fair enough saying:

It was abusive, insulting and really encapsulated the sentiment "come and have a go if you think you're hard enough".

but at the end of the day I'm sure the events of september are alot closer to him and i can see why he's angry!!!!!!!!!

there we go........now i bet you all slate the fuck out of me......mmmmm, i wonder who the wittiest remark will come from?


p.s. i'm not having a go...or being a troll

 

[Tooter]

edited due to double posting!!!!

[ 16 October 2001: Message edited by: Tooter ]

 

[J-Bob]

No, you're being a twat.

Why does anyone who holds an opinion about current affairs neccessarily have to have been involved in it at ground level ?

Instead of being intelligent, trying to raise the level of deabate and occassionally being witty, what should we do ?

I can't speak for everyone else who posts here, but I can say that I have no sympathy with the way the governements of US and the UK have acted. For what it's worth, I think the attempts of Colin Powell and at a push, Blair, have been admirable in reigning of the bloodlust that dominates the Bush administration (did you know for example that the US had been planning military action in Afghanistan for more than 2 months prior to September 11 ?); other than that, Bush's speeches have been juevenile and offensive and the actions of his cabinet deplorable.

And yes, I'm just sitting around chatting about it (others on this site are not, they are activists involved in matters they believe in), but what exactly are you doing, or have done, in order to justify your mindless criticism ?

[ 16 October 2001: Message edited by: J-Bob ]

 

[mobymonster]

Tooter,

I think that so far the US and UK have acted alot better than expected and their response has been measured and acceptable.

Having this view will of course make me

I have experienced war. It's not nice(slight understatement) and should be avoided if possible but there does come a point when it's the last resort.

WoW,

So "fucking sad right wing twats" isn't from the troll manual ? and the majority of reponses are in the it's the US or UK or West's fault, imperialist's, capatalist's etc etc it's like a mantra. oops nearly fogot Isreal there at fault as well.
-------------------------------------------
No one has come up (including a sad right wing twat like myself) with a realistic or workable solution instead of war and I don't believe dialogue is the answer.

mobymonster

 

[mobymonster]

J-bob, where did you get this from "(did you know for example that the US had been planning military action in Afghanistan for more than 2 months prior to September 11 ?)"

mobymonster

 

[kissthecat]

Mombiot on anti americanism in todays Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,574808,00.html

edited to add a message from Tony
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,574735,00.html

[ 16 October 2001: Message edited by: kissthecat ]

 

[J-Bob]

I'll dig out the story, but it is fairly common knowledge that war was always on the Bush administration's agenda. With a loonies like Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and his deputy Paul Wolfowitz (the equivilent of a rabid dog), it really was only a matter of time.

There's also a hell of a lot of money to made from having a war, money that goes to defence companies. Work it out.

 

[kissthecat]

I read that too. But typing: "Afghanistan war US" brings up lots of results It's like finding a needle in a haystack. What we need is a metal detector (a politically aware search engine).

 

[mobymonster]

J-Bob, thanks I would apreciate
it.

While I think I can safely say I won't agree with much that is posted here, I think the following would be ageed by most.

The terrorist attack and subsequent war will result in:

People dying (already happened)

Money being made

All sides taking the opportunity to test new equipment and tactics

new laws that threaten freedom being brought in (already happening)

more racial disharmony

no long term solutions
--------------------------------------------
please add there must be more.

mobymonster

 

[johnwisehammer]

"All sides taking the opportunity to test new equipment and tactics"

How strong is the Afghanistan military-industrial complex these days?

 

[J-Bob]

No one has come up (including a sad right wing twat like myself) with a realistic or workable solution instead of war and I don't believe dialogue is the answer.

?? If dialogue is not the answer to some degree, what is ? With all the media coverage I have seen the few concrete conclusions that can be made are:

the US/UK administrations have absolutely no proof of guilt for September 11 beyond circumstantial evidence;

the US has been keen to resume military action in the middle east whatever;

the governemnets of the UK and the US have little understanding of Islam and are unwilling to learn;

Bush's rhetoric is racist and offensive;

this whole scenario is about more than September 11 - oil, trade routes, protection of capitalism (Imperialism ?);

support for the Taliban is growing in the middle east (and also in the west) because of the west's handling of the affair, an unstable region is becoming perilously distabalised to a cataclysmic degree;

wars are useful distractions to growing domestic social problems;

this is a fundamental issue that has been building up for centuries: the west's exploitation of the rest of the world.

I think opening up the channels and actually having some dialogue with the countries of the middle east for once would actually be very useful. Listening to what they have to say would also be a first. I mean, and not to be too over-dramatic, it could save the world.

What do you suggest ?

[ 16 October 2001: Message edited by: J-Bob ]

 

[mobymonster]

J-Bob, I don't have an answer, war isn't going to work on it's own and neither will dialogue.

---------------------------------------------
the US/UK administrations have absolutely no proof of guilt for September 11 beyond circumstantial evidence;

>That can't be proved either way, the likes of you and me are never going to see what real (do the governments, really get to see the "real" evidence ?) evidence there is.

the US has been keen to resume military action in the middle east whatever;

>Probably

the governemnets of the UK and the US have little understanding of Islam and are unwilling to learn;

>They are starting to learn now.

Bush's rhetoric is racist and offensive;

>In your opinion, I find the anti west rhetoric put out by some followers of islam as offensive and racist.

this whole scenario is about more than September 11 - oil, trade routes, protection of capitalism (Imperialism ?);

>maybe but killing 6000 didn't help the middle east did it.

support for the Taliban is growing in the middle east (and also in the west)

> I don't agree, very few countries want the Talebans brand of islam.

because of the west's handling of the affair, an unstable region is becoming perilously distabalised to a cataclysmic degree;

>Can't argue with that but again killing 6000 hasn't helped either

wars are useful distractions to growing domestic social problems;

>Sad but true

this is a fundamental issue that has been building up for centuries: the west's exploitation of the rest of the world.

>Not an unexpected comment, I just don't think the west is always to blame, the rest of the world must share in the blame as well

I think opening up the channels and actually having some dialogue with the countries of the middle east for once would actually be very useful. Listening to what they have to say would also be a first. I mean, and to be too over-dramatic, it could save the world.

>Maybe at some point this will happen, I hope so. I don't think anyone, east/west whatever, listens to the other side anymore.

mobymonster

[ 16 October 2001: Message edited by: mobymonster ]