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I'm new here from NYC, thoughts about the "War"

It's interesting that one or two of you have suggested shunning him (something about 'the Troll'). Bravo!

That will be because he came here shouting 'Go fuck yourselves' and (with the exeption of one time) didn't return. Hence 'a troll' (that could all change if s/he returns and engages in debate)

I would also like to point out that not all of Canada and the US support this 'war' so its not a case of canada+US V's U75.
 
J-Bob, the point I am trying to make is that the posts here act in exactly the same way. The sentiment is that you garner no respect or understanding by purely telling people to fuck off. One post here sums up the impression given - that you feel uncomfortable with anyone who disagrees with your opinions.

As you say, we are bombarded by right-wing press on a daily basis, and yet when you get chance to debate an issue the general sentiment appears to be to tell anyone who doesn't agree to fuck off. You could try educating people instead of alienating them. This may be the first time that they get to see alternative 'facts' from those they have be fed.

To be honest, you are either idealistic, naive of just plain ignorant of human nature if you expect people to accept what you say on face value. ;) (j/k)
 
JC, if Tribal wants to debate, then why doesn't (s)he? I am willing as are others but (s)he has not been debating, merely flaming. To reinforce my point, I'd just like to quote a poem by Wilfred Owen

"Bent double like old beggars under sacks
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through the sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! Gas! Quick, boys! - An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime...
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before mt helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from his froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues, -
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori."


Wilfred Owen - 'Dulce et Decorum est.'

PEACE TO ALL!
 
It strikes me that Tribal's initial post was somewhat inflammatory (almost along the lines of Fuck Off to the entire board really).

It was abusive, insulting and really encapsulated the sentiment "come and have a go if you think you're hard enough".

It is also one of those opinions which has been expressed by similiar American pro-war posters on U 75, with no regards as to forwarding a reasoned argument, or lessening the abusive and insulting content with a view towards a more constructive debate.

Tribal has obviously not read the previous posts on this board, concerning similiar topics, so perhaps I may be permitted to re-introduce my own personal response.

Fuck Off (Fuckwit)

Otto, RasRave, Darin et al. Tell me why I'm wrong to criticise here, and justify how correct Tribal is then.
 
The mistakes Tribal made were trying to speak for everyone in New York and for the U.S. entirely, obviously lacking a few screws lost on Sept. 11. I'm in Los Angeles, and we're under as much threat of a terrorist attack as New York - actually we've been a target as long as New York has, and it's only by a botched mission that we weren't blown to smithereens ourselves along with Manhattan. But I'm not going to pretend like we as America didn't inadvertently cause this ourselves (as a government, not personally), or that our matter is the most gruesome event ever witnessed. That takes more American egotism than I'm willing to be responsible for.

Also, Tribal has placed an albeit sad & shocking atrocity in New York above the decades-long turmoil in the Middle East. 6000 dead is really terrifying, but it certainly isn't the hugest and most tragic death toll in World history. Let's not get theatrical here.

By the way, for the (pseudo?)intellectual elitists here who call this a "good" debate; healthy discussions don't include a defense mechanism where a person flies off the handle and screams FUCK YOU at others to compensate for personal tragedy. This, kiddies, is what we call in psychology "displacement" or "transference." You're smart - read up on it. ;)

[ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: apollo child ]
 
Apollo- the mistakes that Tribal made were the same that every American Fuckwit makes. (I know you're not one of them).

I also understand the angst that is part of the grieving process. In the same way as I pointed out to Tribal that this has been gone through many times now on the U 75 boards, I'll point it out again to you (Tho I know you already know it :) )

Sympathy has been expressed to anyone who was a victim or a relative of a victim of the WTO terrorist attack/incident (I still don't know how in my own head how best to quantify it).

The "debate" on this board IMO is as much to prevent another likewise tragedy in NYC as it is to prevent a similiar one anywhere else in the world.

So quantifying the grief of Americans (no lack of sympathy there)is as important as recognising the grief of any parent, brother or sister in any other part of the world, not just America.

A suggested remedy of "It'll make it better if I bomb the fuck out of you" is not a reasoned response.

Neither is a psuedo-psycholgical justification for it.
 
Right on Grasshop :)

(Though I wasn't trying to *justify* his behavior with pseudo-psychology - only to *ridicule* it).

Grief is one thing, and for that I'm very sympathetic. But I don't have sympathy for flamers and other individuals who can't properly identify and control their feelings, but instead act wrecklessly and melodramatically. This isn't a time when we're all given the O.K. to go "ballistic" (excuse the pun) just for the hell of it.

[ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: apollo child ]
 
I just want to say how much I admire those Americans and Canadians who are actually questioning this so-called 'war' and trying to get people to at least discuss it in a rational manner.

I know it must be difficult for you right now, given the total hysteria in your countries. You have my total respect.

I suppose we've just got to have faith that we'll win this war against ignorance and hypocrisy.

[ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: PatelsCornerShop ]
 
I'm sorry grasshopper but:
Sympathy has been expressed to anyone who was a victim or a relative of a victim of the WTO terrorist attack/incident (I still don't know how in my own head how best to quantify it).

I don't know but this quantifying human beings misery sounds a bit bollocks to me.Is it in terms of social utility or their pure cash value?
PCS using the term hypocrisy in response to tribals thing after having read his 'regrettable' statement with regards to WTC made me laugh a gloomy laugh.
 
The meaning of the word 'sarcasm' obviously hasn't entered your world then, Taxman.

[Edited to add]
And even if I did mean it, didn't I say to apply it to both Americans and Afghans? In which case it isn't hypocritical, is it?

[ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: PatelsCornerShop ]
 
You've obviously found your own way of quantifying it Taxman.

But you seem to have difficulty with the idea that that an Afghan *child* who may be killed during American (sorry) - *Allied* bombing raids may be just as innocent in all of this as the poor victims of the WTO attack/incident.

To clarify: WTO was appalling, in terms of life-loss, personally conected tragedy etc.
But it didn't start on Sept 11.

Tell me how any parents grief is lesser than an American parents grief.

It wasn't me "quantifying" it.
 
You were trying to work out whether it was a terrorist attack or just an incident.It certainly reads that way.Apologies if I misconstrued you.(miscontrued!?)Got you wrong anyhow.
Afghan kids getting killed and the resultant grief is no different to a yank sprog getting popped.The difference is that those deaths could have been avoided and could still stop,if not immediately then quickly,if certain people are brought forward for trial.In the meantime I support the death of innocent people not because I wake up with an urge to burn kids faces off but because I don't wake up with that urge.They're bad times all the same.
 
hello, ok just wanted to restate my thoughts on this matter. first of all, i am sorry if i angered or insulted people here by what i have said. i was speaking purely out of my heart. at this point, i and many of americans feel like everything is wrong. we feel like we put in so much, and we get slapped on the face by the entire world, for what? no one deserved what happened on sep 11, no one. the average american does not mean harm or have hate for any of the people that did this. many people here it seems blame us for what happened, and that is just not fair. look at britain, for example. india under british rule went into civil protests to demonstrate the injustice done to indians by brits. the indians did not fly planes into building or blow up embassies. i want to ask you all a question, what would you do, if you are in our shoes. you all scream 'stop the war' etc, and you speak about our terrible and arrogant ways, but what would you do? we are under attack, and there will be more in the future. how do you defend your nation? the fact that there are afghan casualties is directly the fault of taliban, who do not want to hand over an international criminal. some here scream about the innocent iraqis who die because of our sanctions. while i do not fully agree with the sanctions and feel verry sorry for the iraqi children that died, i want you to think who is responsible for this. if it wasnt for the NATO and US sanctions, S.hussein would have the capacity to construct and use nuclear and chemical weapons, to murder his people and his neighbors. dont think so? he did it before and is trying to do so again. you think he gives a shit about his people? do you think taliban gives a shit about their people? or am i brainwashed by the corrupt US media again? spare me the cliches. the al qaeda and similar groups are not content in simply harrassing americans, as you know, they want to kill americans everywhere and destroy western civilization. we will not sit back and let this pass, islamic fundametalism is a cancer to humanity. it is sad if you do not see this for what it is. yes, i know many will disagree with me and call me a conservative, republican asshole (im a registered democrat btw). instead of ranting and calling me names, why dont some of you post a plane, steps, whatever, on what we as Americans should do to combat terrorism. maybe i can get a better perspective on your views. when a group of people is bent on destroying you, on killing your citizens and destroying your way of life, do you negotiate with them, or maybe give in to their demands. and i am not talking about those arabs who despise US for all the capitalistic garbage that comes out of here (britney spears, fast food, etc),that i can see as being offensive to their religion, and i can respect that. i am talking about those arabs that simply want to destroy western civ, and establish a fundamentalist state like taliban, which kills women and forbids music. Hobbes was right. i am not trying to convince anyone here, i see the majority is a anarchist/left wing liberal (dont mean to put a negative connotation) and they will bash me for whatever i say, but i simply want to share my feelings.
 
I hate to interrupt a good circle jerk, but damn! I'm hoping to reach you before your faces become totally frozen into half-smirks of self satisfaction and mutual congratulation..

You are all sympathetic to the loss of life in NY. Let me thank you, on behalf of all New York, for the depth and heartfelt warmth of your charity.


Some dude comes on and writes that his friends have been burned to death, he's read your posts, he's angry, and he tells you to fuck off.

I'm sure he wouldn't have gotten so hot under the collar if he had realized how delicate your sensibilities are, and that with the mere mention of anger or invective, you will retreat like the three monkeys covering their respective sense organs: See no evil; hear no evil; speak no evil!

I'm sure that the subtext in your replies posted to him, said: "Tribal, you are acting out of sadness and anger for the loss of life by your countrymen; that is the wrong course of action, just as it is wrong to use terrorism to react to the death and suffering of those in the Middle East, and we will work publicly to get the message out that both sides are warmongers" That was your message to Tribal, wasn't it.

And once he had your message, it would be unnecessary for him to return, because that is all he needs to learn, right?

Let me further congratulate you on your sense of objectivity and even handedness. I have followed the demonstrations in London and elsewhere in Europe, protesting the use of force by the US. I am sure that many of you attended.

Although no one has said as much, I am certain that you have also attended prayer vigils for the dead of the US, as well as demonstrations protesting the use of force by the terrorists against the US, since the use of force, as opposed to discussion and diplomacy, is wrong. Right?

Once again, I congratulate you on your ability to think objectively, and to publicly show your non support for violence perpetrated by either side..

As to specifics, I'd like to congratulate apollo child, a rational american. He doesn't want anyone to get too theatrical, just because 6000 people died by fire in the course of about an hour. But he certainly is right; as an LA resident, he might be a target too. However, I am confident, apollo, that if the time should ever come when you must watch your mother die screaming while her body flails and burns, or your brother or friend vomiting and shitting himself to death because he opened the wrong envelope, that you will spare the world from any unseemly displays of theatrics. I salute your obviously cool head.

I also salute your intelligence, apollo, which must be much greater than mine. If mine equalled yours, I might understand your reference to the Freudian psychoanalytic terms of 'transference' (a type of projection where early childhood conflicts are reexperienced with the psychoanalyst) and 'displacement' (the tendency of libido to invest itself in neutral objects as opposed to the original objects of its aim).

Us simple folk might think that you have botched an attempt to sound intellectual by using the wrong jargon, but I will leave it to 'you in psychology' to understand such complex matters. And heaven help us regular guys, should you ever complete Psych 100, and move on the the rarefied air of Second Year.

Nemo, it's neither sweet nor glorious to die, but we in North America may yet get to experience that 'extasy of fumbling for gas masks' that your poem refers to. Maybe, if we die in a gas attack, you can write a poem about us? That would be nice...

Ever been in a real, serious fight, like for your life? If you survive (and I use that term expressly, as opposed to 'win'), the aftermath usually involves sobbing, maybe vomiting from emotion, but no feelings of glory. Once you've done that, you don't do it again lightly.

Tired + rundown: what's your real name? Flora MacDonald, Glenn Clark or Sunera Thobani? If you are Canadian, you'll know what I mean. And maybe not all Canadians support the US, but your government has committed troops. I hope that you will support them when they must die for us, so that you and I can man our important posts at the computer terminals.

Bezzer: Do I really sound like a ten year old? Thank you for that compliment. One of my great desires has been to find a way to reclaim the innocence which I possessed as a child. Have I finally succeeded? Perhaps, after reading my thoughts here, you will promote me to age 5?

Why should I write a letter to the military? They already agree with me, to say the least. And I can't launch any missiles from my Barcalounger. I called to see about getting one of those buttons installed, but they said the backorder list was so long, I'd have to wait at least 8 months. By then, there'll be no one left for me to nuke...

Patel's post has brought a reply to mind, which I am sure will make you smile, because of it's simple minded jingoist tone:

We Canadians learn about the Great White North, our animal friends, and our fertile environment. One of the things we learn is how a pack of wolves deals with a herd of deer, buffalo, or elk. The herd as a whole is too strong for the carnivores, so they pick at it from the sides and back, looking for stray calves, or for the chance to sever the hamstrings of an adult, or to separate an animal that is maybe ill, slower and weaker.

The US has been historically strong (I'm not discussing benevolence or rectitude here, just strength). Lately, it has been more reluctant about throwing its weight around, and internal debates about policy, etc. are often aired internationally.

There are those around it who would like to see it fall, for reasons valid or invalid. Historically, they have been afraid to face the US head on, because it was still to strong.

Someone just decided to give it a try. Question now is, what is the true nature of the US; is it still strong, or is it merely old and bloated, and an easy target that has been living on past reputation?

At this level, it's merely the law of the jungle, evolution, the survival of the fittest; not the most moral or the kindest, but the fittest.

Boys and girls, we are all going to be touched by this, and we will all have to choose sides. I don't think we'll get to fence sit this one. Well, I'm comfortable with my choice.


Speaking of courage and all that manly stuff, do you remember my earlier post about the planes? I asked if you (each one of you, that is) found yourself on a hijacked plane that was certain to be used as a bomb to destroy innocent lives, whether you would engage in a struggle, at great personal risk to yourself, with likely death as an outcome, to overcome the hijackers and thwart their plan, like the individuals on Flight 93 did. Forget questions about enlisting or civil disobedience. Would you do this?
 
Oh yeah; small point of interest. Prior to Sept 11, the US was the world's largest contributor of foreign and humanitarian aid to Afghanistan.

Is this what they mean by biting the hand that feeds you? Ever' day I knows it more: them Taliban boys sure be smart!
 
I also salute your intelligence, apollo, which must be much greater than mine. If mine equalled yours, I might understand your reference to the Freudian psychoanalytic terms of 'transference' (a type of projection where early childhood conflicts are reexperienced with the psychoanalyst) and 'displacement' (the tendency of libido to invest itself in neutral objects as opposed to the original objects of its aim).

Taking Psychology 101 and proud to point out your first "correction?"

I've already been to enough Psych classes to know the technical differences between 'displacement' and 'transference.' Though when I posted the message I knew that a lot of people were familiar with the more general idea of 'displacement' and 'transference,' being, as most of us call it, "misplaced aggression."

displacement: a form of defense mechanism in which an emotion that is repressed when first experienced is later experienced in connection with something related.

transference: a revival of emotions previously experienced and repressed, as toward a parent, with a new person as the object.

As you can see, by rough definition these terms are easily interchangeable, though some of us who took Psych know the technical differences and don't always feel the need to bore anyone else with it unless we have graduate degrees. The two phenomena can be experienced in any given situation, not just early childhood, at a doctors office, or in bed. "Road rage" is a well-known example of displacement or transference (you pick). Tribal's first post was an example of both (transferring anger from the respective object toward an unrelated [and anonymous] group of people). Believe it or not, I checked my old notebooks to make sure this was correct before I used it. So you couldn't possibly be telling me anything I hadn't already known.

Not that I'm incredibly interested in Freud anyway. ;)

Oh by the way, I don't need your "salute" quite simply because I didn't ask for it :). If I had, I'd be guilty of the same thing I accused a few others here of being - pseudo-intellectual. That means I won't be pedantic by deliberately burdening anyone here with technicalities and stick to what is already familiar to most of everyone. I didn't do it for cheers or jeers. Why bother giving me either, then? (For your own self-worth, perhaps? Hmm..)

Hypothesis: If you're going to participate in a circle jerk, you should bring a towel to wipe off your own face. :D
 
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori."

The problem here is that Bin Laden and his "martyrs" are peddling a more extreme version of the old lie.
 
Tribal, as a leftie anarchistic type I have tried to follow your instruction to go fuck myself but even with my admittedly huge penis i just cannot fit it up my anus...

Any advice as I just know you yanks are the font of all relevent knowledge... :eek:
 
Johnny:

There are those around it who would like to see it (the States) fall, for reasons valid or invalid. Historically, they have been afraid to face the US head on, because it was still to strong.

Someone just decided to give it a try

Question is - who?
 
Johnny C,
Sorry if I made it sound like I am a Canadian, because I'm not. All I was trying to do was point out that not all of Canada (and the US) support this 'war'. But I am British and when (inevitably) British troops are sent in, I will be saddened that they (both sides) had to loose their lives for a cause that I feel will not solve any of the problems it's trying to adress, but only make them worse.

Tribal I am glad you came back. :)
 
Why sweetie, you don’t need to ask me, if you want to be a 5 year old. Hmmm if you finaly get around to asking the US military to install your nuke button, you just go ahead and ask them if they can install a sand pit in your back garden (you could make a mock model of Afghanistan in your new sand pit), and use twigs for people and stones for cruse missals. (Make sure you knock down all those nasty old twigs jnoney) I have absolutely no dought, that you will be as happy as sand boy.

Ohh my god what else have we got your argument… (A little bit of Darwinist survival of the fittest warped up in a lovely little antidote about wolves hunting in a pack in the great white north) well you cannot argue against those natural laws of life and survival. I am very surprised that you did not give it a little bit more of a pro capitalist spin Johnny? Well pack wolves killing deer’s in north Canada must be natures way of telling us, to launch cruise missiles in Afghanistan, yes that’s what I think mother natures really trying to point out…. Don’t you think?

In regards to international politics, you make it sound like a bout of WWF wrestling, you cannot see it can you? Your constant needs to romanticise the emotions and reactions to the events of September the 11th (people like your self are dangerous). Why? Because you use the language of the victim, for your justifications.

“There are those around it who would like to see it fall, for reasons valid or invalid. Historically, they have been afraid to face the US head on, because it was still to strong.”

You do not point out who these people are. It’s ambiguous and paranoid and thus it is a statement, which could be seen to be inclusive of everyone who is non-American. Don’t get so uppity about this world jealousy directed towards America, I know its difficult for your ego to handle, but there are many people around the world that are just as proud as of there culture as Americans are (and rightly so) because as I said before we started these debates Johnny, there are both good and bad things to say about every culture including America.

Going back to this…

“At this level, it's merely the law of the jungle, evolution, the survival of the fittest; not the most moral or the kindest, but the fittest.”

It really does annoy me when people use scientific arguments to justify social interactions with in politics. You are applying a hypothesis of physiological change in species adapting to environments over the course of many millions of years, it’s the height of arrogance to call this justification for war and when applied to your own species it is called eugenics.

“ Oh yeah; small point of interest. Prior to Sept 11, the US was the world's largest contributor of foreign and humanitarian aid to Afghanistan.”

Well for a ten trillion economy that’s very generous. May I divert you to the biblical allegory of the poor widow and the rich man? I will not explain it to you, I think you get the gist from the title. (But then again I have doughts).

[ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: bezzer ]
 
Bezzer,

For a put-down, you're the absolute tops.
:cool:

I don't know if you were at the demo on Saturday, but if you were, it would have been nice to see you.
 
Yeah, but come on Apollo, surely it's a bit unusual to understand his/her reaction and then call her/him a twat for it? I mean, if you're saying that as a result of the trauma (we hypothesise) s/he has suffered s/he's temporarily acting irrationally, then surely you should be more understanding? Isn't it a bit like calling a Tourette's sufferer a rude bastard?

(Just to provoke you a bit :) )
 
Canuk,
No one has ever bombed your country.
You dont have a clue what terrorism is about.
I knew guys in the Twin Towers.
I have been caught up in IRA bombs here.
Effectively we in this country are in the front line, you are not you stupid Canadian git. Until you are, until you have the remotest idea what its like, shut up.
As for Tribal, I do know how you feel mate. I had friends at Eurobrokers and at Cantors, they were even on the floors that were hit, so at least I can hope they knew very little.
I have also been caught up in two large IRA bombs in London, had to tear my shirt up to bandage a womans head- christ I KNOW how you feel at that moment, I probably would have killed with my bare hands anyone who had spouted pro IRA shit at that moment.
But still with all that, you cannot give in to thoughts of killing and revenge, it'll only destroy YOU.
99% of the people on this board were horrified by what happened on the 11th, if you had looked at the board then you would have seen that. As you have come along now what you have seen is the reaction to the bombing of Afghanistan, a poverty ridden country where the people cannot chose their government, where most of them dont even know why they are being bombed ( the plan to drop leaflets explaining was dropped only when it was realised that 85% cant read).
We are in the front line just as much as you, after we gave US planes the clearance to take off from UK airfields to bomb Libya all those years ago Ghaddafy sent the IRA seven shiploads of weapons and explosives which they then combined with money which in the main came from the US. Those weapons were used against people in this country, often.
Still we are standing by your country now, even though we know what happened last time.
Dont forget that.
If you dont like all you read here, well thats not surprising, neither do many of the rest of us, we all gets pissed off with each others opinions. The point is you are acting as if it had happened yesterday, we on the other hand have been here before, we know what comes next which is why what is said on here now is mainly about how to avoid this happening again- ANYWHERE.
 
by JWH:
Yeah, but come on Apollo, surely it's a bit unusual to understand his/her reaction and then call her/him a twat for it? I mean, if you're saying that as a result of the trauma (we hypothesise) s/he has suffered s/he's temporarily acting irrationally, then surely you should be more understanding? Isn't it a bit like calling a Tourette's sufferer a rude bastard?
(Just to provoke you a bit)


See, that's why I like you, JWH. You can provoke thought without pissing off the thinker. ;) We should take a lesson from this, everyone (seriously).

But to get to your question: I don't think that understanding a situation without sympathizing is contradictory at all. The concepts are totally different. While I "understand" what Tribal's going through, I do not "sympathize" with his choice of reaction.

The Tourette's analogy is faulty because that's a syndrome in which extreme behavior cannot be helped. But spewing venom at other people in order to deal with one's own emotions from a previous isolated incident is not a disease - it's a behavioral problem that is simply habit and can easily be fixed.

People learn from one another, whether the behaviors they pick up are good or ill. It's ideal to learn more appropriate ways of dealing with trauma, and this can be learned by watching more civilized members of society maturely handle their emotions, just as flaming can be learned from uncivilized people. The latter misrepresent the U.S., and understandably it vexes me a bit.

Clear enough?

[ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: apollo child ]
 
JC, if there were another attack and I were a poet, perhaps I would write a poem. That poem is a famous WWI poem by Wilfred Owen who died in the last week of the war. As for what you said about Apollo child 'watching his mum writhing in agony' and the rest of the hypothetical pseudo-right-wing crap, it's so nice to know you wish everyone well. :mad: :mad: To have another hypothetical question: how would you feel if your entire family were in Afghanistan, US bombs raining down on their heads and people dying all around them? I doubt you would be saying it was just.

PEACE TO ALL!
 
by Nemo:
JC.. As for what you said about Apollo child 'watching his mum writhing in agony' and the rest of the hypothetical pseudo-right-wing crap, it's so nice to know you wish everyone well.


Wow. He said that about me? If I had the persistence (or depressing spare time) to read his longwinded rant, I probably would have gotten to that part. I just scrolled down the lengthy message until I saw my name mentioned in the sarcastic "I salute your intelligence" bit.

Really, what other purpose could there be in posting a tiresome chapter on the board like that except for self-gratification (which is another irony in his comparing this thread to a "circle jerk" - being that he seemed to get the most masturbatory pleasure out of his own message). What sparkling wit his sermon *may* have had more than likely fizzled throughout the middle and toward the end like a flat beer; stale, tasteless, & ultimately ineffective.
 
Hipipol - respect.

Tribal, I am sorry about youre loss, but don't you think we need less, not more hatred in the world? The Afgans are just as innocent as the USA citizens who died in s11, most of them live in fear of the Taliban scumbaqgs who the west actually *supported* until s11? Bombing will only make them suffer even more.

LUV AND HUGS TO ALL

Frogwoman

{edited to remove gratuitious insult}

[ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: frogwoman ]
 
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