Just got back from anti-war demo
- Thread starter Nemo
- Start date
Doctor Crimson
- he's not a real doctor
I just heard that the USA is dropping personnel mines in Afghanistan.
If this is true, it will claim countless civillian victims. Does anyone have more information?
If this is true, it will claim countless civillian victims. Does anyone have more information?
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
or antipersonnel mines? sorry, that was snippy
I know they're dropping cluster bombs, and about 20% of the bomblets don't explode IIRC, and just sit there until someone trips over them. Maybe that's what's being referred to.
Cluster bombs are one of those weapons that are damn good at what they're supposed to do, and relatively cheap, but have the unavoidable side-effect of also killing people who spend time in the area afterwards... like the depleted uranium in various different missiles and shells, including those "bunker busters" that have been advertised widely in the papers (Paveway Mk2 I think).
Whatever your opinions on the war, using weapons that kill indiscriminately is not an acceptable way to wage it.
Incidentally, re DU, i remember hearing that some company was developing an equivalent armour-piercing shell for the Challenger tank using tungsten, which is not half as dangerous for anyone in the area and just as effective, but it was turned down because, hey, DU is cheaper. That's even less forgiveable.
I know they're dropping cluster bombs, and about 20% of the bomblets don't explode IIRC, and just sit there until someone trips over them. Maybe that's what's being referred to.
Cluster bombs are one of those weapons that are damn good at what they're supposed to do, and relatively cheap, but have the unavoidable side-effect of also killing people who spend time in the area afterwards... like the depleted uranium in various different missiles and shells, including those "bunker busters" that have been advertised widely in the papers (Paveway Mk2 I think).
Whatever your opinions on the war, using weapons that kill indiscriminately is not an acceptable way to wage it.
Incidentally, re DU, i remember hearing that some company was developing an equivalent armour-piercing shell for the Challenger tank using tungsten, which is not half as dangerous for anyone in the area and just as effective, but it was turned down because, hey, DU is cheaper. That's even less forgiveable.
zeedoodles
Member
Great March, Between 20,000 and 30,000 peeps from all cultures and all walks of life.
Very Very peacefull, not one single arrest apparently. Nice to see all those I managed to catch up with. Feel shattered now ready to crash and re-charge my batteries.
'Who let the bombs out'
'Bush Bush Bush'
Very Very peacefull, not one single arrest apparently. Nice to see all those I managed to catch up with. Feel shattered now ready to crash and re-charge my batteries.
'Who let the bombs out'
'Bush Bush Bush'
0
0742
Guest
here in sheffield iam haveing phone calls from people on the demo.. sounds fucking good to me.. well done people..
one love 0742 http://urbanparanoia.co.uk
cut the bullshit get the real truth
one love 0742 http://urbanparanoia.co.uk
cut the bullshit get the real truth
Cautious Fred
commie troublemaker
I thought it was brilliant too.
The cops are quoting 20,000, but the organisers of the demo are saying it was nearer 40-50,000.
One thing's for sure, there are definitely tens, probably hundreds of thousands of people out there who are sick of the bombing, who see through Bush and Blair's lies about this being a war against terrorism, and who want to do something about it.
A lovely warm day, too, with people dancing in the fountains in Trafalgar Square after the march. Huge numbers of young people, lots of muslims, a brilliant samba band, lots of shouting ... A brilliant day.
BBC report on the demo here.
[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: Cautious Fred ]
The cops are quoting 20,000, but the organisers of the demo are saying it was nearer 40-50,000.
One thing's for sure, there are definitely tens, probably hundreds of thousands of people out there who are sick of the bombing, who see through Bush and Blair's lies about this being a war against terrorism, and who want to do something about it.
A lovely warm day, too, with people dancing in the fountains in Trafalgar Square after the march. Huge numbers of young people, lots of muslims, a brilliant samba band, lots of shouting ... A brilliant day.
BBC report on the demo here.
[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: Cautious Fred ]
Cautious Fred
commie troublemaker
Or "1-2-3-4, we don't want your racist war!
5-6-7-8, spend the money on the welfare state!"
5-6-7-8, spend the money on the welfare state!"
editor
hiraethified
I was there! Photos here
PatelsCornerShop
watching you watching me
Hey Nemo. I met RaverDrew, ali303 and steelgate. I heard WellRed was in the crowd too. Pity I missed both of you.
Anyway, it was a FANTASTIC day!!!
I had a stall (my own little PatelsCornerShop) and I sold all my stuff I illegally exported from Iraq, in breach of UN sanctions. So as well as people breaking sanctions by buying the stuff off me, they were also able to forward their money to the refugees of Afghanistan through this organisation here
The total amount of money raised was £350-62 and I would like to thank all you people for firstly turning up and secondly for those who were able to break sanctions and donate money for a good cause. Thank you.
Anyway, it was a FANTASTIC day!!!
I had a stall (my own little PatelsCornerShop) and I sold all my stuff I illegally exported from Iraq, in breach of UN sanctions. So as well as people breaking sanctions by buying the stuff off me, they were also able to forward their money to the refugees of Afghanistan through this organisation here
The total amount of money raised was £350-62 and I would like to thank all you people for firstly turning up and secondly for those who were able to break sanctions and donate money for a good cause. Thank you.
S
Spud Murphy 2.0
Guest
I got down there at 3pm, and it was both encouraging and surprising to see so many people.
It's easy to get cowed when so much of the media and public opinion has rallied to the flag, or more appropriately perhaps, has huddled beneath it.
So may I express my admiration for all those who are organising and promoting these vital events. Small voices today still, when measured against the politicians and the headline writers - but tomorrow, who knows?
[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: Spud Murphy II ]
It's easy to get cowed when so much of the media and public opinion has rallied to the flag, or more appropriately perhaps, has huddled beneath it.
So may I express my admiration for all those who are organising and promoting these vital events. Small voices today still, when measured against the politicians and the headline writers - but tomorrow, who knows?
[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: Spud Murphy II ]
C
coo-coo
Guest
The Glasgow one was pretty damn good too. Got home, turned on the radio, "The pentagon admit a bomb intended for Kabul airport was accidentally dropped a mile away, in a residential area of the city..." Surprise surprise
J
johnwisehammer
Guest
A great day, I think - and hopefully one that will make Bu-lair realise that the UK is far from prepared to write a blank cheque (literally and figuratively) for an endless war against endless American enemies, and that many British Muslims and non-Muslims remain unconvinced that this isn't permeated with Islamophobia.***
Well, I was on the Critical Mass to start off with - sort of 12:20ish departure from Waterloo, about eighty strong, which was a bit disappointing, but I suppose that's what happens when it's at such short notice. Anyway, a quick meander through Victoria and Knightsbridge and then right up to the demo coming down Park Lane. I (and my sidekick) jumped in at this point and then went down towards Piccadilly, the Circus and then jumped off to pick summing up at Charing X Road.
I had a very amusing road rage incident - two fuckers in Ferarris cut me up, so I pedalled like mad and caught them at the next junction and had a full on barney with the fat, Rick Waterman looking cunt in the convertible. "look where you're fucking going, you cut me up you bastard, you must have a tiny dick to need to drive that car, you fat tosser, you probably couldn't get out if you wanted to" and so on. How we laughed. It's so rare you get to let rip on a completely deserving target.
Then down to Trafalgar Square, fucking *huge* demo - we'd been there about an hour before the end of the column had even got to Piccadilly Circus.
Good things: lots of different peeps, Stop The War appears to be a *genuine* coalition, quite interested/surprised/pleased to see that a lot of the TU banners are now in English and Turkish or English and Bengali.
Bad things: idiots grabbing the speaker's mike, too much chanting of "God is great" (just as un-coalition-y as chanting "One solution - revolution", IMO).
All in all - very good. After the official speakers ended, a couple of guys with RTS banners (which I'd never actually seen before) and the Brighton whistley Samba type band took over and effectively became the demo. There were some people calling for a march on Downing Street but it was obvious nothing was going to come of it if they didn't have the focus - the band - leading.
I didn't see any aggro with the police at all - and I also thought that there were not as many as there had been on previous occasions. Did anyone else notice there were suprisingly few overt police photographers too? (You're not media/you're a cop/police harassment has got to stop). And too pushy photographers - I had to politely/clearly ask one guy twice not to photograph men and then very gently lay a single finger on the camera strap before he would stop taking a pic. Fucking uncool, I thought.
I saw two people I knew - PatelsCornerShop - you bastard, you didn't mention me and I even came up to you and introduced myself! Am I so easily forgettable?!!
(Nice dates, by the way - and I hate fuckin' dates normally). But nice work for getting out there and getting stuck in.
I also walked straight past Mike the Honcho (opposite the NPG) at one point, saw him and thought "oh look, it's the singer (Mark?) out of The Levellers" who I've met a couple of times, but not enough to go up and randomly chat to. Then about 5 minutes later (and around the corner) I thought, "wait a minute, that's not what he looks like at all, that's Mike!" by which time I was miles away. Bugger.
I didn't see Well Red at all, despite actually finding myself standing underneath the "no war but the class war" banner (they'd snuck up behind me - bloody tricky these reds!).
And a special mention goes to the hardcore feminist crew (?) who had a banner reading "Bush Blair: if you want blood so much, you can have ours" smeared with red. Which when you get closer, you realise is actually blood, presumably menstrual, and covered with used tampons. Which is really fucking unpleasant if you get caught in a bit of a crush and find yourself a bit too close!
Good work, fellas!
***Related: looking through the AP site a second ago, I noticed that there were two adjacent pics of average looking geezers at anti-war demos in Peshawar (Pakistan) and London. The Peshawari guys were described as "Muslim demonstrators" while the (white) London guys were not described as "Christian demonstrators". I wonder why? The next pic was of three British Asian guys (by appearance, anyway) in London; they were described as "Islamist demonstrators", despite the fact one of them was carrying an SWP poster. Hmmm...
Other cutting-edge, descriving everything from real life, definitely not trading in shagged-out ancient cliches reporting came from the BBC's Stephen Hawkes, who talked aboout "the crusty contingent - complete with dogs on string and cans of cider". Well, fucking hell, they can't have been that crusty, cause I never saw them. Twat.
Well, I was on the Critical Mass to start off with - sort of 12:20ish departure from Waterloo, about eighty strong, which was a bit disappointing, but I suppose that's what happens when it's at such short notice. Anyway, a quick meander through Victoria and Knightsbridge and then right up to the demo coming down Park Lane. I (and my sidekick) jumped in at this point and then went down towards Piccadilly, the Circus and then jumped off to pick summing up at Charing X Road.
I had a very amusing road rage incident - two fuckers in Ferarris cut me up, so I pedalled like mad and caught them at the next junction and had a full on barney with the fat, Rick Waterman looking cunt in the convertible. "look where you're fucking going, you cut me up you bastard, you must have a tiny dick to need to drive that car, you fat tosser, you probably couldn't get out if you wanted to" and so on. How we laughed. It's so rare you get to let rip on a completely deserving target.
Then down to Trafalgar Square, fucking *huge* demo - we'd been there about an hour before the end of the column had even got to Piccadilly Circus.
Good things: lots of different peeps, Stop The War appears to be a *genuine* coalition, quite interested/surprised/pleased to see that a lot of the TU banners are now in English and Turkish or English and Bengali.
Bad things: idiots grabbing the speaker's mike, too much chanting of "God is great" (just as un-coalition-y as chanting "One solution - revolution", IMO).
All in all - very good. After the official speakers ended, a couple of guys with RTS banners (which I'd never actually seen before) and the Brighton whistley Samba type band took over and effectively became the demo. There were some people calling for a march on Downing Street but it was obvious nothing was going to come of it if they didn't have the focus - the band - leading.
I didn't see any aggro with the police at all - and I also thought that there were not as many as there had been on previous occasions. Did anyone else notice there were suprisingly few overt police photographers too? (You're not media/you're a cop/police harassment has got to stop). And too pushy photographers - I had to politely/clearly ask one guy twice not to photograph men and then very gently lay a single finger on the camera strap before he would stop taking a pic. Fucking uncool, I thought.
I saw two people I knew - PatelsCornerShop - you bastard, you didn't mention me and I even came up to you and introduced myself! Am I so easily forgettable?!!
(Nice dates, by the way - and I hate fuckin' dates normally). But nice work for getting out there and getting stuck in.I also walked straight past Mike the Honcho (opposite the NPG) at one point, saw him and thought "oh look, it's the singer (Mark?) out of The Levellers" who I've met a couple of times, but not enough to go up and randomly chat to. Then about 5 minutes later (and around the corner) I thought, "wait a minute, that's not what he looks like at all, that's Mike!" by which time I was miles away. Bugger.
I didn't see Well Red at all, despite actually finding myself standing underneath the "no war but the class war" banner (they'd snuck up behind me - bloody tricky these reds!).
And a special mention goes to the hardcore feminist crew (?) who had a banner reading "Bush Blair: if you want blood so much, you can have ours" smeared with red. Which when you get closer, you realise is actually blood, presumably menstrual, and covered with used tampons. Which is really fucking unpleasant if you get caught in a bit of a crush and find yourself a bit too close!
Good work, fellas!
***Related: looking through the AP site a second ago, I noticed that there were two adjacent pics of average looking geezers at anti-war demos in Peshawar (Pakistan) and London. The Peshawari guys were described as "Muslim demonstrators" while the (white) London guys were not described as "Christian demonstrators". I wonder why? The next pic was of three British Asian guys (by appearance, anyway) in London; they were described as "Islamist demonstrators", despite the fact one of them was carrying an SWP poster. Hmmm...
Other cutting-edge, descriving everything from real life, definitely not trading in shagged-out ancient cliches reporting came from the BBC's Stephen Hawkes, who talked aboout "the crusty contingent - complete with dogs on string and cans of cider". Well, fucking hell, they can't have been that crusty, cause I never saw them. Twat.
PatelsCornerShop
watching you watching me
Oh sorry JWH. I was either not concentrating properly (busy looking after others) or perhaps I just didn't hear you properly. It wasn't meant. Were you that chappie who said he was a communist?
[Edited to Add]
Can you please give me the URLs for those reports as I'm compiling a list.
Thanks.
[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: PatelsCornerShop ]
[Edited to Add]
Can you please give me the URLs for those reports as I'm compiling a list.
Thanks.
[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: PatelsCornerShop ]
J
johnwisehammer
Guest
LOL! A Communist? Either you misheard or you're totally wrong about who I was! I was wearing a bike helmet, luminous vest, bike bag - had a bike with me...Bought a coupla dates off you, asked you when you got back from Iraq, told you I knew you from U75, told you my name (John Wisehammer), shook your hand (woulda thought those last ones woulda been a clue!).
This is so embarassing - it's like going up to someone you met at a party and they completely deny knowing you to the point when you look like a deranged psychopathic stalker! (Ahem - not that that happens often or antyhing).
The BBC report (that you've prolly already seen) is at http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1597000/1597462.stm . As for the Yahoo/AP stuff - I can't find it again. It came up as one of a few searchs through their photo database, but I can't see it. Soz
Edited to say: Hold on, I've found them. See the photos and captions (not exactly as I remember them and still can't find the UK Asian holding the SWP) for:
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/
20011013/wl/1002966910pakistan_attacks_kar101.html http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm/
20011013/wl/imdf13102001105253a.html
(NB disorienting, demonic, angry look of this guy/pic)
versus http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap
/20011013/wl/1002971070germany_attacks_stu101.html http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm
/20011013/wl/imdf13102001124818a.html
I had to cut the URLs in half because it was making everything go widescreen
HTH
[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: JWH [usual rubbish] ]
This is so embarassing - it's like going up to someone you met at a party and they completely deny knowing you to the point when you look like a deranged psychopathic stalker! (Ahem - not that that happens often or antyhing).
The BBC report (that you've prolly already seen) is at http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1597000/1597462.stm . As for the Yahoo/AP stuff - I can't find it again. It came up as one of a few searchs through their photo database, but I can't see it. Soz
Edited to say: Hold on, I've found them. See the photos and captions (not exactly as I remember them and still can't find the UK Asian holding the SWP) for:
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/
20011013/wl/1002966910pakistan_attacks_kar101.html http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm/
20011013/wl/imdf13102001105253a.html
(NB disorienting, demonic, angry look of this guy/pic)
versus http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap
/20011013/wl/1002971070germany_attacks_stu101.html http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm
/20011013/wl/imdf13102001124818a.html
I had to cut the URLs in half because it was making everything go widescreen
HTH
[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: JWH [usual rubbish] ]
Well just got off the train in Malvern. Fucking great demo. At Malvern station there turned out to be a punk going to the demo as well so got company for the day. 
The actual demo was amazing. Expecting those with megaphones (I really really hate the megaphones ) and the guy who spent 10 minutes pestering me to buy a manifesto for some really obsure leninist party that I had told him I didn't care about. The atmosphere was great, and there were so many people, really hadn't been expecting that many would turn up. There was little trouble from the police who were generally chilled (although they did barricade the band and those dancing in at the end to stop a march to downing street) and the leafletters were all good humoured (with one noted expection).
After the speeches the band was great, completely disgregarding my inability to dance I was compelled to do so for ages. Damn good stuff.
And JWH were you the guy with a cap on underneath a bike helmet? Didn't see any of the rest of you and avoided all the stalls, unfortunately, as I hadn't realised that our own PTS was there selling goods other than leaflets. Anything interesting happen after I left at 5:30pm?
The only thing that really pissed me of was the shouts of God is great (I think) during the attempt at a 1minute silence, didn't exactly create good vibes that. Still, great day, when's the next one?
The actual demo was amazing. Expecting those with megaphones (I really really hate the megaphones ) and the guy who spent 10 minutes pestering me to buy a manifesto for some really obsure leninist party that I had told him I didn't care about. The atmosphere was great, and there were so many people, really hadn't been expecting that many would turn up. There was little trouble from the police who were generally chilled (although they did barricade the band and those dancing in at the end to stop a march to downing street) and the leafletters were all good humoured (with one noted expection).After the speeches the band was great, completely disgregarding my inability to dance I was compelled to do so for ages. Damn good stuff.
And JWH were you the guy with a cap on underneath a bike helmet? Didn't see any of the rest of you and avoided all the stalls, unfortunately, as I hadn't realised that our own PTS was there selling goods other than leaflets. Anything interesting happen after I left at 5:30pm?
The only thing that really pissed me of was the shouts of God is great (I think) during the attempt at a 1minute silence, didn't exactly create good vibes that. Still, great day, when's the next one?
S
Spud Murphy 2.0
Guest
JWH: I've just read Hawkes's report. I don't think it's so bad - it's generally fairly positive.
Right enough, there were some crusties - but I didn't actually see any of them with a dog, still less one on a piece of string. I was more perplexed at the astonishing array of obscure lefty newspapers that seemed to have sprouted up like mushrooms. I mean, what is 'Aurora'?
Right enough, there were some crusties - but I didn't actually see any of them with a dog, still less one on a piece of string. I was more perplexed at the astonishing array of obscure lefty newspapers that seemed to have sprouted up like mushrooms. I mean, what is 'Aurora'?
Oh, just read another thread on this and realised that you said you'd be wearing the luminous jacket with polite on the back in which case I saw you. Should have read that before I left, would of said hi.
M
Man Of Kent
Guest
COngratulations to all those who stood up for what they believe in and marched today. I may not agree but you have my respect. It's nice to see people using their democratic right to protest and I'm sure that the people of Afghanistan would be chuffed - if only they were allowed to listen to 'western' radio etc. (NB this is not sarcasm, I suspect that the really WOULD be chuffed)
Just one thing though...while you slap yourselves on the back for a magnificent victory and how "Blair can no longer ignore the scale of anti-war feeling." (Sorry Nemo not aimed at you personally), I would remind you that 20,000 turned up, 56 million didn't. In fact in the grand scheme of thing less than 0.05% of the population turned out.
I'd say the the Big Grin couldn't be too arsed about it and will continue on his merry way.
Like I said though, 'big up' to all who attended...
Just one thing though...while you slap yourselves on the back for a magnificent victory and how "Blair can no longer ignore the scale of anti-war feeling." (Sorry Nemo not aimed at you personally), I would remind you that 20,000 turned up, 56 million didn't. In fact in the grand scheme of thing less than 0.05% of the population turned out.
I'd say the the Big Grin couldn't be too arsed about it and will continue on his merry way.
Like I said though, 'big up' to all who attended...
J
johnwisehammer
Guest
"I'm sure that the people of Afghanistan would be chuffed - if only they were allowed to listen to 'western' radio etc."
Tangentially - apprantly, the US has been claiming to drop a certain model of wind-up radios to Afghan refugees. Unfortunately, if the model number they have given is accurate, it means that the refugees can't pick up foreign radio stations on shortwave - just the Taleban's stations on AM.
D'oh!
Meanold - yeah, that was me - you shoulda! Next time, eh?
[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: JWH [usual rubbish] ]
Tangentially - apprantly, the US has been claiming to drop a certain model of wind-up radios to Afghan refugees. Unfortunately, if the model number they have given is accurate, it means that the refugees can't pick up foreign radio stations on shortwave - just the Taleban's stations on AM.
D'oh!
Meanold - yeah, that was me - you shoulda! Next time, eh?
[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: JWH [usual rubbish] ]
Cautious Fred
commie troublemaker
Good report about the demo on Guardian Unlimited:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,573529,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,573529,00.html
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
okay, so when's the next one? seeing as how I couldn't make it to this one... anything more in the pipeline?
D
Derek
Guest
The next anti-war demo is on Saturday the 18th of November. This one should be much bigger than yesterdays demo. Details for it will be at www.stopwar.org.uk.
[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: steelgate. ]
[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: steelgate. ]
Walter Mitty
Seasoned lizard hunter
I hope all this well be over by November the 18th. 
Mysterymonster
Jane's mystery
Great Demo, fantastic vibe.
Why can't all marches be like this one? I think it is easier to get your message across with non-violent action. (Please note, all those who kick off at Anti-Capitalim marches.)
P.S. Great to meet Zeedoodles and Mrs Zeedoodles
[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: janemonster ]
Why can't all marches be like this one? I think it is easier to get your message across with non-violent action. (Please note, all those who kick off at Anti-Capitalim marches.)
P.S. Great to meet Zeedoodles and Mrs Zeedoodles
[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: janemonster ]
RubyToogood
RubyTwobikes
Excellent that it all went so well.
This is just the beginning of the anti-war campaign. What we need to do is work on the climate of public opinion and the media, in order to put pressure on the government to end the war and enable the approaching famine in Afghanistan to be stopped in its tracks. This means getting together with people in your area, going leafletting, writing to the local and national papers, calling radio phone-ins, trying to make sure that people are hearing the truth of the situation and not just what the government chooses to tell them. We need to make pursuing this war as unpopular and untenable for the government as maintaining the poll tax was for the Conservatives. In the light of yesterday, that doesn't seem as unrealistic as it might have done previously.
[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: RubyToogood ]
This is just the beginning of the anti-war campaign. What we need to do is work on the climate of public opinion and the media, in order to put pressure on the government to end the war and enable the approaching famine in Afghanistan to be stopped in its tracks. This means getting together with people in your area, going leafletting, writing to the local and national papers, calling radio phone-ins, trying to make sure that people are hearing the truth of the situation and not just what the government chooses to tell them. We need to make pursuing this war as unpopular and untenable for the government as maintaining the poll tax was for the Conservatives. In the light of yesterday, that doesn't seem as unrealistic as it might have done previously.
[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: RubyToogood ]
