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John Major: let's keep the Coalition after the next election

labour aren't a counterbalance to the tories, neither were the lib dems. the difference between the three is so negligable they may aswell all merge into 1 party anyway.

I'd agree that in the past there was insufficient differences - and counterbalance - between the 3 main parties but there are certainly differences now, that could be built upon.

There is of course little difference now between the Tories and the Lib Dems, because of their attempts to maintain a united front, but there is definitely a chasm between coalition policy and the aspirations and demands of Lib Dem voters, such that it looks as if Clegg, rather than Cameron will attract much of the heat and the flak for coalition policy, rather than Cameron.

The difference between Labour and the Tories and Lib Dems, isn't as great as it might be, but it is certainly far too gaping a chasm that Labour could ever marry up with the Tories and Lib Dems.

A one party state in Britain - of either left or right hue - would be death of democracy, plunge the country into a new form of dark age and either be, or presage, the end of the nature of our current experience of modern civilisation as we know it. Britain would become a post liberal society. Indeed, it has already started on that journey.
 
I'd agree that in the past there was insufficient differences - and counterbalance - between the 3 main parties but there are certainly differences now, that could be built upon.

There is of course little difference now between the Tories and the Lib Dems, because of their attempts to maintain a united front, but there is definitely a chasm between coalition policy and the aspirations and demands of Lib Dem voters, such that it looks as if Clegg, rather than Cameron will attract much of the heat and the flak for coalition policy, rather than Cameron.

The difference between Labour and the Tories and Lib Dems, isn't as great as it might be, but it is certainly far too gaping a chasm that Labour could ever marry up with the Tories and Lib Dems.

A one party state in Britain - of either left or right hue - would be death of democracy, plunge the country into a new dark age and either be, or presage, the end of the nature of our current experience of modern civilisation as we know it. Britain would become a post liberal society. Indeed, it has already started on that journey.

It doesn't matter that much if there's one party, two or three if they're all saying very slightly modified versions of the same thing, does it?
 
IDS is also quite interesting. He is very socially conservative but I do think he has genuine concern for the poor.

"Genuine concern for the poor"? His "concern" is no more " genuine" than that expressed by Victorian social engineers. As for him claiming that worklessness is a "sin" According to the Guardian and other papers this is what he said,

Ian Duncan Smith, the work and pensions secretary, said today it was a "sin" that people failed to take up available jobs as he prepared to announce a tougher-than-expected squeeze on the unemployed.http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/nov/11/welfare-iain-duncan-smith

He said it was a "sin" that people failed to take up available jobs, that is to say jobs that don't pay very well, force the worker into economic slavery and do nothing for the individual's sense of dignity.
 
"Genuine concern for the poor"? His "concern" is no more " genuine" than that expressed by Victorian social engineers. As for him claiming that worklessness is a "sin" According to the Guardian and other papers this is what he said,



He said it was a "sin" that people failed to take up available jobs, that is to say jobs that don't pay very well, force the worker into economic slavery and do nothing for the individual's sense of dignity.

Never mind if the job is actually impossible to take up because of childcare responsibilities or they are really too ill to be on JSA in the first place but have been magically classed as 'fit for work' :(
 
Well, Cameron can see off any challenges from the right on the argument that they must compromise to keep the Coalition together. How long this argument will be sustainable for I don't know.
That'll probably last equally as long as Britain's financial system and banking industry can be protected from collapse. Since a large part of what's holding it up are deposits from abroad (including flight to safety deposits) and repayments from money lent abroad, the UK will only remain protected from collapse as long as the unwinding and domino effect of banking, financial system and sovereign default collapses elsewhere can be kept at bay.

A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. That's why the collapse of Bear Stearns a few years back during the 2007/08 financial crisis had such a pivotal ramification for banks here and worldwide. It triggered a cascading series of electronic bank runs, unwinding and position covering.

That's part of the reason why everyone is desperate to help bail out Ireland, including Britain. This isn't necessarily an argument for or against it; but were it not to happen, given UK exposure the stark probability is that major names in the UK banking sector would technically be insolvent and essentially bankrupt again, a mere couple of years after the last UK bank bail out.

Can governments bail out the world? Logic would say not, but expediency, a desire to maintain wealth (including illusions of wealth) and desperation to maintain power status quos suggest otherwise.

When it comes to bail outs, it seems governments are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. If they do, they stand accused of protecting the wealthy (although to some extent bailing out a bank may be protecting everyone in part to a degree given it staves off a deeper economic depression). If they don't, then such public misery and anger ensues, that central hiearchical governments end up at best, simply collapsing and at worst, they end up hung from the rafters. If they carry out a bail out, you get a slower collapse, 'off with their heads' demands are few and far between, and the government ends up later being quietly shown the door as happened in Iceland, Greece, UK, and is happening in Ireland.

The only winner seems to be global financial system, which - along with many pre-existing predatory practices - remains relatively intact, unimproved and unreformed.

All bets as to the direction of the coalition are indeed truly off, if there is a further systemic collapse in Britain's financial system and banking sector.

If there is one, then there are a number of things that could happen. Cameron could be replaced as leader (John Major and Edwina Currie could run for leader/deputy on a workhouse and gruel 'back to basics' come-back ticket!) The coalition could swing to the right or move to the left (e.g. backed into a corner to fully nationalise a bank for example). Britain could either fully withdraw from the EU or fully join it. Or hook up in closer economic alliance with some European countries, like Iceland and Norway, a kind of North European Economic Community or Union of Independent European States. Who knows?
 
It doesn't matter that much if there's one party, two or three if they're all saying very slightly modified versions of the same thing, does it?

It doesn't? The two party state that Major appears a fan of, is one step closer to being a one party state. And how exactly do people vote out or influence the policy of a government in a one party state?

Time and time again, one party states or those with oppressive state or political structures that approach or are analagous to them, end up as authoritarian, and sometimes genocidal dictatorships. From Saddam Hussein's Iraq, Pol Pot's Cambodia, myriad African tin pot dictatorships, Eastern Europe's former Soviet bloc, Stalin's USSR, Hitler's Germany, Mugabe's Zimbabwe.

Are there people around who seriously believe it will be case of 'zillionth time lucky' to try another? It's political gambling and experimentation with people's lives and national sovereignty. Time and time again, one party states are historically proven dystopian failures.
 
What on earth are you on about? Who is arguing for a one-party state? A John Major/Edwina Currie govt - wtf? Labour receiving most votes - wtf? Is this a wind-up?
 
It doesn't? The two party state that Major appears a fan of, is one step closer to being a one party state. And how exactly do people vote out or influence the policy of a government in a one party state?
How do people vote out or influence the policy of a state where all the parties have the same policies?
 
How do people vote out or influence the policy of a state where all the parties have the same policies?

And more importantly, are controlled by the same interests. He seems to be under the impression that we have a democracy, as opposed to an elected dictatorship.
 
This really isn't about the onward march to totalitarian tyranny - it's really about terminal LD decline, and a beautifully-executed tory takeover, so as to remove the other 'option' for people who are , incredibly, scared of Labour govts, but disgusted by future tory actions
 
Which is the same reason Labour are going to have to start fighting a lot harder and adopt a more radical anti cuts message than they currently want to, if they want to take advantage of the general hatred of the coalition. I think the only certainty of the next election will be the destruction of the Libdems as a viable political force.


Labour doesn't have to take a radical anti-cuts stance, as most of those opposed to the cuts will vote on the basis of getting rid of the coalition, as usual placing blind faith in Labour to do the right thing (remember how many people thought that Blair would whip the cloak off and reveal the socialist underneath in 1997? And then in 2000 when he'd 'proved he can be trusted.' Etc.) Which is why, despite the fact that short-term victories will feasibly be won, we are going to get massive cuts sooner or later. The West is locked into an economic battle with the rising industrial powers that, in the long-term it cannot possibly win, which is why the unaccountable powers that really run the country have decided that the welfare state has to go. Those who are behind this project began their work thirty years ago and now, despite the 'Great Recession' (or perhaps because of it) have the upper hand.

It doesn't matter in this context who is in government. Oligarchy rules.
 
A one party state in Britain - of either left or right hue - would be death of democracy, plunge the country into a new form of dark age and either be, or presage, the end of the nature of our current experience of modern civilisation as we know it. Britain would become a post liberal society. Indeed, it has already started on that journey.

What a bizarre statement.
 
Labour doesn't have to take a radical anti-cuts stance, as most of those opposed to the cuts will vote on the basis of getting rid of the coalition, as usual placing blind faith in Labour to do the right thing (remember how many people thought that Blair would whip the cloak off and reveal the socialist underneath in 1997? And then in 2000 when he'd 'proved he can be trusted.' Etc.) Which is why, despite the fact that short-term victories will feasibly be won, we are going to get massive cuts sooner or later. The West is locked into an economic battle with the rising industrial powers that, in the long-term it cannot possibly win, which is why the unaccountable powers that really run the country have decided that the welfare state has to go. Those who are behind this project began their work thirty years ago and now, despite the 'Great Recession' (or parhaps because of it) have the upper hand.

It doesn't matter in this context who is in government. Oligarchy rules.

I disagree, a little. Labour got let off lightly because we'd had 18 years of Tories. We're gonna force these fuckers out within a year, and Labour won't get any second chances - the same will happen to them if they don't pull their fucking socks up. Keep smashing shit until they have no choice.
 
I disagree. Labour got let off lightly because we'd had 18 years of Tories. We're gonna force these fuckers out within a year, and Labour won't get any second chances - the same will happen to them if they don't pull their fucking socks up.


Even if what you say comes true (it almost certainly will not), all that would happen is that, in the midst of all the confusion generated we'd get the return of the coalition, or a period of rule by the Tories on their own. This is what happens when no serious alternative to the present system exists.
 
Even if what you say comes true (it almost certainly will not), all that would happen is that, in the midst of all the confusion generated we'd get the return of the coalition, or a period of rule by the Tories on their own. This is what happens when no serious alternative to the present system exists.

It's what we have to make sure happens. The anti-cuts campaign must be just that - anti cuts, not just anti Tory cuts. Labour apologists, fuck the fuck off - this ain't your fight, it's ours.
 
On this subject, I turned on Radio Four this morning when I woke up, and on the panel of that programme that begins at nine on Sundays, some bloke (don't know his name or why he was there exactly, maybe a banker or some such) was asked if he feels under siege as a free marketeer nowadays. His reply was to the effect that he feels quite the opposite in that despite everything nobody who matters seriously suggests that any alternative to capitalism is feasible. He's perfectly correct.
 
It's what we have to make sure happens. The anti-cuts campaign must be just that - anti cuts, not just anti Tory cuts. Labour apologists, fuck the fuck off - this ain't your fight, it's ours.


I'm doing the opposite of apologising for them. Calm down.

Who are 'we?' There is no 'we.' What kind of government can you imagine not implementing cuts at all?
 
Labour doesn't have to take a radical anti-cuts stance, as most of those opposed to the cuts will vote on the basis of getting rid of the coalition, as usual placing blind faith in Labour to do the right thing (remember how many people thought that Blair would whip the cloak off and reveal the socialist underneath in 1997?

er YES........NOBODY.......
Did you really know anybody who thought Blair would be better than he was More Socialist???????
 
You seemed to be saying that lots of people in 97 thought Blair might turn out to be some closet leftie?

I heard quite a few people fooling themselves into thinking that he'd turn out to be not exactly a leftie but 'real Labour' or some such, as soon as he'd proved that Labour could 'govern responsibly.' This kind of twaddle seemed particularly common among LP members.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter to the current debate.
 
I heard quite a few people fooling themselves into thinking that he'd turn out to be not exactly a leftie but 'real Labour' or some such, as soon as he'd proved that Labour could 'govern responsibly.' This kind of twaddle seemed particularly common among LP members.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter to the current debate.
really? that's a high concentration of very gullible people. I can't remember any in my life/acquaintance deluding themselves like that, not even voters in the constituency I canvassed in in 1997 (Enfield Southgate, aka ta-ta portillo)
 
really? that's a high concentration of very gullible people. I can't remember any in my life/acquaintance deluding themselves like that, not even voters in the constituency I canvassed in in 1997 (Enfield Southgate, aka ta-ta portillo)


Fair enough. Maybe I imagined it then.

The point is that fooling ourselves into believing that a Labour government won't implement the cuts that our unaccountable oligarchies want to see is akin to pretending that Blair would reveal himself a socialist.
 
I heard quite a few people fooling themselves into thinking that he'd turn out to be not exactly a leftie but 'real Labour' or some such, as soon as he'd proved that Labour could 'govern responsibly.' This kind of twaddle seemed particularly common among LP members.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter to the current debate.

Really? I never met anybody like that. As it turned out Blair in power was better than Old Labour though. Doubling spending in health and education, The ema, paternity leave etc........
 
The point is that fooling ourselves into believing that a Labour government won't implement the cuts that our unaccountable oligarchies want to see is akin to pretending that Blair would reveal himself a socialist.
absolutely, which is why we need national unrelenting pressure on them - demoes, strikes, occupations, NVDA, civil disobedience, the works - to make it crystal clear to the bastards of the consequences of doing so, consequences for them, and for public order. We have to force them into taking our anger seriously. Yes, I think this can be done.
 
absolutely, which is why we need national unrelenting pressure on them - demoes, strikes, occupations, NVDA, civil disobedience, the works - to make it crystal clear to the bastards of the consequences of doing so, consequences for them, and for public order. We have to force them into taking our anger seriously. Yes, I think this can be done.


Civil disorder is likely to abate if Labour get back into government, though, particularly if they do so making noises about softer cuts (the most we can hope from them). And if it starts up again it is not only unlikely to do so with the same energy, but would probably result in a 'who governs?'-type election and a swing back to the Tories, as nobody is presenting a clear alternative to the 'either soft cuts or rapid cuts' approach, and no organisational structure exists that could carry it.
 
On this subject, I turned on Radio Four this morning when I woke up, and on the panel of that programme that begins at nine on Sundays, some bloke (don't know his name or why he was there exactly, maybe a banker or some such) was asked if he feels under siege as a free marketeer nowadays. His reply was to the effect that he feels quite the opposite in that despite everything nobody who matters seriously suggests that any alternative to capitalism is feasible. He's perfectly correct.

Richard D. North.
 
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