Jews stoned in East End (again)

[durruti02]

I'm disgusted that you use the distress caused to these American and Canadian tourists by stone-throwing East-End thugs as an excuse for yet another of your meaningless and uncontextual attacks on 'the left.

Another thing that disturbs me is that there's a bi-polar type of support for Judaism from politicos such as 'JHE', 'tbaldwin, durruti02 (et al), but it's a support that ignores Jewish dissenters and pioneers and favours only the conservative elements. Their colours really show when they write threads on immgration. The Left, who support these same needs for British Muslims, also supported the struggles of British Jews back in the 20th Century and offered solidarity - as they do today. JHE/durruti02 and tbaldwin can't have it both ways, and yet I think they want it both ways. They retrospectively support a Jewish minority who has struggled for over a century to be able to live in Britain, whilst at the same time managing to oppose the very same struggles that orthodox Muslims strive for today - the same things that orthodox Jews strove to achieve, up to a century or more ago. Jewish immigrants' rights back in the early twentieth century went largely unsupported, especially by British Trades Unions (who weren't what could be described as "Left-wing unions"). It was those on the Left - the very people these 'usual suspects' criticise for supporting immigrants today - that gave support to Jewish East-Enders when Moseley's Fascists marched through the East End, protected by the State.

In the run up to the 1905 Aliens' Act, and throughout two world wars, Jewish immigrants in the East End have endured white-protestant-anglo-saxon nationalistic call for immigration controls and demand that there are no-special needs provided for immigrants, so I say this unequivocably - this "socialism of fools" such as we see in the insincere, insensitive and often anti-immigrant commentaries of treelover, durruti02, JHE and tbaldwin, renders their so-called 'support' for Jews unwelcome.

I absolutely don't want to see or hear of inappropriate political capital to be made of this foul behaviour on the part of the stoning-youths or over the distress of the Tourists. The support of Islamophobes is no support for Jews and those who voice a hatred for Muslims cannot then profess convincingly to love Jews. The issues faced today by British Muslims in catering for their special needs have been experienced by British Jews in almost every way - from a special need for a non-protestant style of maternity service unlike those offered in Britain at the turn of the twentieth century, to a special-requirement for education and religious courts for marriage/birth/divorce/death - all of these things have been achieved already in this country by Jewish communities, without support of either state or wider-citizenry.

i've tried to be fair to you IP but you live in a fantasy world as to my political beliefs absolute fantasy .. i am an islamophobe?? yeah??? LOFL ( you have NO idea really NO idea what you are talking about ) .. and I support jewish conservatism!! LOLROFD again you have no fucking idea how fucking wrong you are i could qoute you lenni brenner till you died of boredom a few years back and talk of all the east end jewish radicals .. i despise jewish conservatism as i despise all conservatism .. why did go not go the whole hog and call me a fucking Stern Gang??

and anti immigrant?? i am not and have never been and you could search for EVER and a day to find any evidence that i am anti immigrant .. it is bullshit and ignorent of you and all who say it .. it is tragic that so many people like you who claim to be on the left fail to see the differrence between attacking a process and those victims on all sides in it ( are you against sweated labour?? of course you are you that does not mean you are against those who work in sweat shops does it ?? jesus christ!)

you have your safe little moralist world into which you do not like people raising objections ( while our communities crumble around us and teh BNP make hay .. ) .. really you, who live fucking hundreds of miles from whitechapel where the middle class self righteous white Respect fake lefties down here who i was referring to, live, telling ME, who lives down here, not to comment?? and i was right about what i said .. do not tell me that in commenting on where i live i am being uncontexual when you do not live here .. how arrogent are you??

p.s. you make the same mistake of the ex left of patronising immigrants by identifying them by 'their' relegion .. to the detriment of many of those immigrants and not lessening division but concretising it .. it is a recipe for disaster

 

[muckypup]

1 And your basing that on what?

2 Great. But that doesnt mean that we should sweep prejudice under the carpet does it?

Prejudice exists on both sides; its fuelled by people with a clear agenda. Do something about it, get involved at the community level instead of spouting utter nonsense on a BB which only serves to further hate.

... and I'm basing my views on interfaith projects that I'm actively involved with as well as a close relationship with both the muslim and jewish communities, both of which i have great admiration for.

 

[Spion]

i've tried to be fair to you IP but you live in a fantasy world as to my political beliefs absolute fantasy .. i am an islamophobe?? yeah??? LOFL ( you have NO idea really NO idea what you are talking about ) .. and I <snip> detriment of many of those immigrants and not lessening division but concretising it .. it is a recipe for disaster

I thought the best point IP made was that you decided to make capital of this to attack what you perceive as 'the left'.

Also I think she makes a good point in highlighting your concern for Jews in this (NB, unproven as anti-semitic) attack and the way you can sweep other racist activity under the carpet.

In the past I've argued with you that cases of racist murders targetting Asians are commonplace and documented as such where I live. I presented you links to several news articles and you didn't accept it, you argued it was irrelevant. Now we have one case of an alleged anti-semitic attack with no evidence whatsoever for it being so, and you accept it wholesale, and use it to lay onto your political enemies.

It's shameful. I can only distrust and loathe someone who is prepared to twist reality like that for sectarian political ends.

 

[smokedout]

p.s. you make the same mistake of the ex left of patronising immigrants by identifying them by 'their' relegion .. to the detriment of many of those immigrants and not lessening division but concretising it .. it is a recipe for disaster

but isn't that the point, these kids have already been condemned as anti-semetic because they were 'asian' which means they must be muslim and therefore anti-semites

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

but isn't that the point, these kids have already been condemned as anti-semetic because they were 'asian' which means they must be muslim and therefore anti-semites

Judophobic
for fucks sake there is no monopoly on the semitic tribal names despite years of attempts by one particular sect of it. period.

it would be like trying to cover all Arabiaphobia (fear of arabs or their actions) as being exclusively anti-semitic...

more over the remainder of your post i hope is poorly constructed to infere all asians are muslims from what you'd read rather than a statment of your opinion.

Otherwise... well you know...

 

[tbaldwin]

racist against who...Garfield?

Bumped for you Garfield.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Bumped for you Garfield.

sorry genuinely didn't see it...

your racist assumption really.

The concept that because they are catigory A) they will therefore default hate Group B) and will be willing to exorcise that...

muslims must hate jews in this instance... your perception is rather black and white and negates a lot of the shades of grey and the historical significance

 

[tbaldwin]

sorry genuinely didn't see it...

your racist assumption really.

The concept that because they are catigory A) they will therefore default hate Group B) and will be willing to exorcise that...

muslims must hate jews in this instance... your perception is rather black and white and negates a lot of the shades of grey and the historical significance

Yeah Garfield. So i think all muslims hate jews do i? erm.....

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Yeah Garfield. So i think all muslims hate jews do i? erm.....

try reading
1)muslims must hate jews in this instance... your perception is rather black and white and negates a lot of the shades of grey and the historical significance
2) The concept that because they are catigory A) they will therefore default hate Group B) and will be willing to exorcise that...

1)You dont think it could possibly have anything to do with the fact that the vast majority of asians who live in tower hamlets are muslim do you? 2) Or that some kids who go to mosque schools in the area are taught to hate jews do you?

 

[tbaldwin]

You still havent explained who you think i am racist against or what racist assumption? Garfield.

 

[smokedout]

Judophobic
for fucks sake there is no monopoly on the semitic tribal names despite years of attempts by one particular sect of it. period.

it would be like trying to cover all Arabiaphobia (fear of arabs or their actions) as being exclusively anti-semitic...

more over the remainder of your post i hope is poorly constructed to infere all asians are muslims from what you'd read rather than a statment of your opinion.

Otherwise... well you know...

get over yourself, i was agreeing with you

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

You still havent explained who you think i am racist against or what racist assumption? Garfield.

I think you'll find i have been very specific and detailed if you cannot work it out from that then maybe you clearly don't see issue with your own words...

you have however attempt several times to rephrase my comment into a context you can feel you are sound ground to debate.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

get over yourself, i was agreeing with you

by continuing to use the inappropreate, racially discrimintive, non descriptive termenology?

 

[tbaldwin]

I think you'll find i have been very specific and detailed if you cannot work it out from that then maybe you clearly don't see issue with your own words...

you have however attempt several times to rephrase my comment into a context you can feel you are sound ground to debate.

I will try again. Who do you think i am racist against? And what are you basing that on?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Muslim kids being bought up to hate Jews and Christians is something that should be recognised and opposed. And it is a real problem in this country and across the world.

Jewish and Christian kids around the world are brought up to hate Muslims too,

Now some proper idiots will think that statement makes me some kind of a racist and that i hate all muslims.

Why would anyone think that?
You might like them to do so, but I doubt most people would bother. Far better to take you to task for over-emphasising the problem of Muslim hate and under-emphaising other forms, don't you think?

That my real views are based on ignorance and racism....Sad fucking twats.

My my, name-calling imaginary people for an imaginary offence. You are a sad little boy, aren't you?

 

[tbaldwin]

Jewish and Christian kids around the world are brought up to hate Muslims too,

Why would anyone think that?
You might like them to do so, but I doubt most people would bother. Far better to take you to task for over-emphasising the problem of Muslim hate and under-emphaising other forms, don't you think?

My my, name-calling imaginary people for an imaginary offence. You are a sad little boy, aren't you?

1 Fucking hell its the age of enlightenment and you are a searchlight.

2 Bit silly if its a specific issue not to address the issue dont you think?

3 Nope im quite a happy big boy.

 

[ViolentPanda]

... and you have contact with the wider muslim community ? Get real dude.

The amount of muslim and jews who are passionate for interfaith unity and understanding is staggering. There's so much amazing work bieng done in spite of the medias efforts to fuel hatred.

Yep, Muslims, Christians, Jews, even the so-called "Pagan" Hindus and Sikhs and the "neo-Pagan" communities.

It's probably easier to believe that hate is the spur than to accept that actually hate is a minority pursuit. If you accepted that hatred wasn't as big a problem as is made out, you'd have to actually engage with doing something constructive about the causes of it, rather than carping, innit?

 

[ViolentPanda]

1 Fucking hell its the age of enlightenment and you are a searchlight.

It's the Age of Enlightenment and you read Searchlight.

2 Bit silly if its a specific issue not to address the issue dont you think?

Only if you are addressing it, balders. All you've done is indulge in a fantasy where some person or persons, probably "cod-left" "liberal supremacists" unless I miss my guess, accuse you of racism. Face it, your fantasy is based only on your own prejudices about anyone who doesn't agree with you.

3 Nope im quite a happy big boy.

Someone who invents offences against them so that they can feel self-righteously angry isn't happy, and from what I've heard you're not a big boy.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I will try again. Who do you think i am racist against? And what are you basing that on?

tell you waht seeing as i have patentently explained it several times for you now why don't you tell me by way of attempting some kind of compirmise why you think i might have said it...

 

[smokedout]

by continuing to use the inappropreate, racially discrimintive, non descriptive termenology?

as opposed to a term you made up?

 

[tbaldwin]

yeah cos the niggers and the pakis hate them honkeies right... it's a fing they is born with....

you utter fucking racist cretin...

I assumed you posted that cos you think that people who might disagree with you on an issue like this are not just wrong but racist cretins?
I found it slightly amusing but think its also a bit depressing how narrow minded some people are.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

as opposed to a term you made up?

which term is that then dear?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I assumed you posted that cos you think that people who might disagree with you on an issue like this are not just wrong but racist cretins?
I found it slightly amusing but think its also a bit depressing how narrow minded some people are.

nope it was specifically the language and the tone of the language used.

 

[durruti02]

I thought the best point IP made was that you decided to make capital of this to attack what you perceive as 'the left'.

Also I think she makes a good point in highlighting your concern for Jews in this (NB, unproven as anti-semitic) attack and the way you can sweep other racist activity under the carpet.

In the past I've argued with you that cases of racist murders targetting Asians are commonplace and documented as such where I live. I presented you links to several news articles and you didn't accept it, you argued it was irrelevant. Now we have one case of an alleged anti-semitic attack with no evidence whatsoever for it being so, and you accept it wholesale, and use it to lay onto your political enemies.

It's shameful. I can only distrust and loathe someone who is prepared to twist reality like that for sectarian political ends.

twist reality? LOL! How exactly?

lets see what i actually wrote ( its always a goodf idea)

.. i was agreeing with Bristly who said "At the end of the day, as far as I can see, a bunch of asian (not nessecarily muslim) kids, chucked stones at a bunch of people on a walk. The walk happened to be a jewish walk, we don't know that the kids knew that, we don't know that they dont."

i replied "i agree with this .. but i think some people have rightly questionned that if it was a group of elderly asians who were attacked by a group of white kids the 'left' would have been more interested .."

and you say i have fallen for it, 'wholesale', as an anti semitic attacks!LOL GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT BEFORE YOU SMEAR ME!

your reply is ignorent .. sorry but it is .. how can i say that? cos it bares no relation to my posts ..

and i do NOT belittle attacks against asians/muslims (whoever) .. do you understand? .. i do NOT belittle .. BUT i have disagreed with IP who stated there had been a 'wave of attacks against muslims' .. i do not in ANY WAY deny there have been attacks but believe the level ( especially considerating the London bombs ) has been low .. do you see the differrence?? ( p.s. one of your BIG examples you posted was about a falling out over a grilfriend lol ) ..

as i pointed out i have already posted on this thread that i do not think this was neccessarly a racial/anti semitic attack .. and i agree with IP it was probably just kids, although with the holocaust revisionism and anti semitism that is part of extreme muslim politics maybe it was .. I AM NOT CLAIMING IT WAS ..

p.s. am i an islamophobe for being concerned at anti semitism amongst muslim extremists? and btw how actually am i an islamophobe??? LOL

BUT ( and you too are hundreds of miles away ) maybe also you are NOT aware of the political context of this area .. this is RESPECT territory and hence SWP territory .. this is where the white SWP have distorted, lied and fabricated bullshit about a war on islam and the level of attacks on muslims for years, for er now what is it .. i know! 'political capital' ..


it is in THIS context that i DO make political capital .. as, and i repeat, IF the attacks were on Muslims we would have heard it all over the SWP left

If you can not see why this is legitimate to raise then i can say not more

 

[smokedout]

which term is that then dear?

judophobic

wait check that

Results 1 - 10 of about 256 for Judophobic.

it really seems to be taking off

 

[tbaldwin]

nope it was specifically the language and the tone of the language used.

So you still think im a racist cretin?

But you still cant get around to saying who im racist against?

Seems a bit silly Garf.
#
PS Durruti...It is you who works for mossad,not me.

 

[durruti02]

....The Left, who support these same needs for British Muslims, also supported the struggles of British Jews back in the 20th Century and offered solidarity - as they do today. JHE/durruti02 and tbaldwin can't have it both ways, and yet I think they want it both ways. They retrospectively support a Jewish minority who has struggled for over a century to be able to live in Britain, whilst at the same time managing to oppose the very same struggles that orthodox Muslims strive for today - the same things that orthodox Jews strove to achieve, up to a century or more ago. Jewish immigrants' rights back in the early twentieth century went largely unsupported, especially by British Trades Unions (who weren't what could be described as "Left-wing unions"). It was those on the Left - the very people these 'usual suspects' criticise for supporting immigrants today - that gave support to Jewish East-Enders when Moseley's Fascists marched through the East End, protected by the State.
...
In the run up to the 1905 Aliens' Act, and throughout two world wars, Jewish immigrants in the East End have endured white-protestant-anglo-saxon nationalistic call for immigration controls and demand that there are no-special needs provided for immigrants, so I say this unequivocably - this "socialism of fools" such as we see in the insincere, insensitive and often anti-immigrant commentaries of treelover, durruti02, JHE and tbaldwin, renders their so-called 'support' for Jews unwelcome.

you seem to know about the jewish maternity hospital so i am suprised you seem ignorent of the attitude of jewish radicals in the first half of the last century .. they didn't court the rabbis like the craven hypocritical SWP .. they attacked the established relegion and relegious leader, on paper in e.g. the Arbeiter Freint, and and in practice on the streets .. they held ( blasphamous) shabbat pickets and 'parties' outside the synagoges .. they ridiculed and attacked rabbis for their wealth and control of the community .. all at a time when yes there was widespread opposition to Jewish migration!! .. so so so far removed from todays toadying of the Bengali middle classes by the SWP

and when Phil Piratin was elected in 45 it was on the back of decades of real organising in the area and of attacking the jewish middle class as well as anti semties and fascists

and i am going to do something i never thought i would! he he qoute the notorious jewish anti fascist Tony Greenstein ( he he .. we took action together a number of times MANY years ago ) .. and he's still at it!

"The difference is that the CP didn't compromise on its anti-fascist politics. On the contrary it consciously fought a battle with the rabbis and community leaders to wean away class conscious Jews, which is why the CP had such a large Jewish membership and achieved considerable electoral success in the East End as a result of e.g. the Battle of Cable Street which the Jewish Board of Deputies and the Chief Rabbi vehemently opposed. It resulted in Phil Piratin being elected in 1945 as MP for Mile End. The SWP, rather than conduct such a battle, adopts all the terminology of the clericalist leaders of the Muslim communities (Islamaphobia etc.) rather than engage in class and anti-racist politics. But then that would also mean linking up with the white working class which has all but been abandoned to the BNP" http://www.socialistunitynetwork.co.uk/voices/secularism4.htm

i will say again you do a great dis-service (and a dangerous service) in treating/identifying people SO exclusively by their relegion .. it encourages seperation and reaction on all sides ..

 

[Spion]

twist reality? LOL! How exactly? <snip>

BUT ( and you too are hundreds of miles away ) maybe also you are NOT aware of the political context of this area .. this is RESPECT territory and hence SWP territory .. this is where the white SWP have distorted, lied and fabricated bullshit about a war on islam and the level of attacks on muslims for years, for er now what is it .. i know! 'political capital' ..


it is in THIS context that i DO make political capital .. as, and i repeat, IF the attacks were on Muslims we would have heard it all over the SWP left

If you can not see why this is legitimate to raise then i can say not more

So, what we have here is this . . .

1. You admit you made political capital out of this to attack your political enemies.

2. And yet, there was no actual evidence in the original newspaper article to suggest this was anything other than an act of anti-social behaviour

3. Therefore, I can only conclude you expect Respect/SWP to make immediate publicity condemning every anti-social act of violence in the borough . . . OR . . . you are happy to attack your political enemies for overlooking anti-semitism on the basis of dubious evidence-free newspaper articles

Which is it, Durutti?

 

[durruti02]

So, what we have here is this . . .

1. You admit you made political capital out of this to attack your political enemies.

2. And yet, there was no actual evidence in the original newspaper article to suggest this was anything other than an act of anti-social behaviour

3. Therefore, I can only conclude you expect Respect/SWP to make immediate publicity condemning every anti-social act of violence in the borough . . . OR . . . you are happy to attack your political enemies for overlooking anti-semitism on the basis of dubious evidence-free newspaper articles

Which is it, Durutti?

my friend .. you have made pathetic, outrageous and entirely unsubstantiated attacks on me, like IP .. and yet you can not be humble and say sorry .. sad

p.s. i agree with 1 and 2 and 3 except to repeat I HAVE NOT SAID IT WAS AN ANTI SEMITIC ATTACK fkn hell you are hard work

p.s. you do not yet have the sus to understand the irony of local SWP / respect context .. you dig your grave deeper with each post .. you look silly

 

[Spion]

my friend .. you have made pathetic, outrageous and entirely unsubstantiated attacks on me, like IP .. and yet you can not be humble and say sorry .. sad

p.s. i agree with 1 and 2 and 3 except to repeat I HAVE NOT SAID IT WAS AN ANTI SEMITIC ATTACK fkn hell you are hard work

p.s. you do not yet have the sus to understand the irony of local SWP / respect context .. you dig your grave deeper with each post .. you look silly

Your ad homs have no effect on me. They just make you look desparate.

This boils down to just one question - If you agree it was not anti-semitic what grounds do you have for attacking your political enemies over it?