Jews stoned in East End (again)

[Paulie Tandoori]

Just google it you'll find loads of references. Its publicised quite widely in the Jewish press and the secualr press including local papers publicises HMD events as well.

I work in TH and i haven't seen a single thing about it tbh. Which does rather undermine the theory that these kids knew what was happening and thus decided to deliberately target the group, explicitly for that reason.

eta: Just had a search of East London Advertiser, for example, and they had one story about HMD, which only mentioned this walk in passing.

 

[Aldebaran]

The question remains if young people who enjoy throwing stones at strangers also enjoy reading Jewish press or local papers, and even that much that they go looking for such announcements to be made before gathering some stones to throw at strangers.

salaam.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I work in TH and i haven't seen a single thing about it tbh. Which does rather undermine the theory that these kids knew what was happening and thus decided to deliberately target the group, explicitly for that reason.

eta: Just had a search of East London Advertiser, for example, and they had one story about HMD, which only mentioned this walk in passing.

Thanks for clarifying that. However, if someone was determined to get a crew up to attack this event it wouldnt' be difficult to find details.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

The question remains if young people who enjoy throwing stones at strangers also enjoy reading Jewish press or local papers, and even that much that they go looking for such announcements to be made before gathering some stones to throw at strangers.

salaam.

See my post above. This little mob may well have been 'encouraged' to do this.

 

[ViolentPanda]

But surely this is double standards, when there is an attack on asians or chinese, etc, in the North, straight away people are on it to it, saying it is a racist attack, as do normally the police, can't that also be down to just bored youth, poverty, etc.

Double standards by whom? This amorphous "left" you're always whining about, me, my uncle Manny?

I don't give a monkey's testicles what "people" do or say, I'm interested in reality, in the facts, and until we establish the facts then everything is just speculation and ignorant point-scoring.

 

[Aldebaran]

See my post above. This little mob may well have been 'encouraged' to do this.

By whom? How many were they?

salaam.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Thanks for clarifying that. However, if someone was determined to get a crew up to attack this event it wouldnt' be difficult to find details.

No it wouldn't, but it is worth commenting on. Like i said earlier on, I do think that there should be public criticism of what took place and clear explanations of why it would be seen as something particularly terrible, given the context of the walk and what it was commemorating. I do wonder how much the local "community leaders", whoever they may be, are actually interested in trying to increase social cohesion and understanding between different groups and communities, as against cementing or maintaining their place byway of fear of criticising those who they purport to represent.

 

[Spion]

But surely this is double standards, when there is an attack on asians or chinese, etc, in the North, straight away people are on it to it, saying it is a racist attack, as do normally the police, can't that also be down to just bored youth, poverty, etc.

So you're absolutely convinced this was an anti-jewish attack are you? What's the evidence? Can you share it with us?

 

[ViolentPanda]

But isn't part of the issue also the recent changes to legislation, so that if the people on the receiving end of this attack percieve the attack as rascist, then the police are obliged to investigate the incident on that basis i.e. a racial attack. And at least one of the people hit by a stone said that was her opinion.

I agree with you, and that isn't the point I'm making, which is that until it's proven to have been an attack motivated by anti-Semitism, then we can only speculate as to it's "true nature".

 

[KeyboardJockey]

By whom? How many were they?

salaam.

Those with an interest in exacerbating historical hatreds whoever they may be.

 

[JHE]

Which does rather undermine the theory that these kids knew what was happening and thus decided to deliberately target the group, explicitly for that reason.

It's nothing to do with knowing in advance and plotting. They just saw a bunch of Jews - and, if they listened, heard talk of Jewish history in the East End - and chucked bricks and insults at them. That's all.

The injuries were more serious than the last time they stoned a bunch of visiting Jews.

On the other hand, the injuries were less serious than those suffered by John Payne in a mob-handed machete attack.

http://www.eastlondonadvertiser.co....y=newsela&itemid=WeED03 May 2006 17:35:48:163


A few, but sadly only a few, of the thugs who attacked Payne and his friends have recently been convicted and sentenced. Most of the shits have got away with it.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

I agree with you, and that isn't the point I'm making, which is that until it's proven to have been an attack motivated by anti-Semitism, then we can only speculate as to it's "true nature".

Fair enough chief

 

[Andy the Don]

So you're absolutely convinced this was an anti-jewish attack are you? What's the evidence? Can you share it with us?

According to the law for a crime to be classified as a race/hate crime it has to be felt by the victim that they were being targetted due to their race/religon etc.. There is no burden of proof for a crime to be classed as a hate crime.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

No it wouldn't, but it is worth commenting on. Like i said earlier on, I do think that there should be public criticism of what took place and clear explanations of why it would be seen as something particularly terrible, given the context of the walk and what it was commemorating. I do wonder how much the local "community leaders", whoever they may be, are actually interested in trying to increase social cohesion and understanding between different groups and communities, as against cementing or maintaining their place byway of fear of criticising those who they purport to represent.

Good post. I did mention in an earlier post that there are some 'community leaders' who have a vested interest in stirring the shit to consolidate their own power over their communities.

 

[Poi E]

Surely the whole point is that we don't KNOW the motivations, so it's ridiculous to make assumptions, to second-guess the stone-throwing halfwits?

Well yeah, but Garf did say it was being dressed up as something it wasn't. Just wondering why he was so certain it wasn't a racist attack.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So you're absolutely convinced this was an anti-jewish attack are you? What's the evidence? Can you share it with us?

"Don't blame it on the sunshine,
don't blame it on the moonlight,
don't blame it on the good times,
blame it on the migrants".

 

[Aldebaran]

According to the law for a crime to be classified as a race/hate crime it has to be felt by the victim that they were being targetted due to their race/religon etc.. There is no burden of proof for a crime to be classed as a hate crime.

I'm not familiar with UK law, but I find that a very dubious interpretation.
Proving of fact is not done by "feelings" but by irrefutable evidence gathered within the boundaries set by law.

salaam.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well yeah, but Garf did say it was being dressed up as something it wasn't. Just wondering why he was so certain it wasn't a racist attack.

Garf speculated, and given that he lives in the area, possibly from an informed viewpoint. He didn't say it was what happened, just that it might have happened the way he suggested.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm not familiar with UK law, but I find that a very dubious interpretation.
Proving of fact is not done by "feelings" but by irrefutable evidence gathered within the boundaries set by law.

salaam.

Our "hate crimes" laws are a mess. Our police will only treat as "hate crimes" those crimes in which the victims clearly state that they perceived the attack to be motivated by prejudice.

 

[Poi E]

equally without all the facts it shouldn't be dressed up as something it wasn't.

VP, it's semantics, but Garf's statement is absolute, not speculative.

 

[tbaldwin]

not that i have heard of however it's anicdotal innit...

moreover i resent the implication that the group was muslim becuase the parties attacked were jewish.... what kind of racism is at work in that sentiment (i'm aware you're not saying that but the impression beign given by some on the thread is that they are preparred to accept this as anti sematism because the jews were attacked by asisains who must therefore be muslim... you see the racism at work i'm sure)

erm....You dont think it could possibly have anything to do with the fact that the vast majority of asians who live in tower hamlets are muslim do you? Or that some kids who go to mosque schools in the area are taught to hate jews do you?
Just that i dont know many hindus or sikhs who were taught to hate jews do you?

 

[kabbes]

To be fair, if these were orthodox Jews, replete with the various orthodox regalia, it would not have been hard to identify them as such. It is not necessary for the youths to have known about Holocaust Day (I have to admit that I did not know about it) for it to have been an anti-Semitic attack.

 

[Mallard]

The cops are now treating the incident as 'racist' probably won't convince some:-

A Metropolitan Police spokesperson said the incident was being treated as racist and that detectives in Tower Hamlets had begun an investigation.

http://www.thejc.com/home.aspx?AId=...&srchhead=1&srchauthor=1&srchsandp=1&scsrch=0

 

[Bristly Pioneer]

At the end of the day, as far as I can see, a bunch of asian (not nessecarily muslim) kids, chucked stones at a bunch of people on a walk. The walk happened to be a jewish walk, we don't know that the kids knew that, we don't know that they dont.

I've lived in the area for the last 15 years, I've seen asian kids chuck stuff at white people, I saw a gang of asian kids chase a white business man and his girlfriend down the road opposite my house last week, I've seen asian kids arguing with black kids, and seen them having a go at other asian kids.

Mostly what I get from this is that there are large groups of bored asian kids who like to cause trouble in Whitechapel. SOME of this trouble MAY be racially or religiously motivated, but I would say that the LARGE majority is just bored kids being little shits, like bored kids of any colour or religion are.

The incident may have been racial, but nothing says to me it was, the kids didn't say anything racially motivated from what I read. I just think it's wrong to assume it was a muslim/jewish stand off when it could equally been a youth/elderly stand off or a locals/tourist thing.

the kids were violent shits, that is not in debate, but we don't know for sure why they were.

 

[Andy the Don]

I'm not familiar with UK law, but I find that a very dubious interpretation.
Proving of fact is not done by "feelings" but by irrefutable evidence gathered within the boundaries set by law.

salaam.

As VP has stated the UK hate crimes are a dogs dinner. Legislation rushed through in haste with a lack of thought. So Aldebaran, be nice to me & do not hurt my feelings or else you could well have the fuzz at your door..

 

[tbaldwin]

At the end of the day, as far as I can see, a bunch of asian (not nessecarily muslim) kids, chucked stones at a bunch of people on a walk. The walk happened to be a jewish walk, we don't know that the kids knew that, we don't know that they dont.

I've lived in the area for the last 15 years, I've seen asian kids chuck stuff at white people, I saw a gang of asian kids chase a white business man and his girlfriend down the road opposite my house last week, I've seen asian kids arguing with black kids, and seen them having a go at other asian kids.

Mostly what I get from this is that there are large groups of bored asian kids who like to cause trouble in Whitechapel. SOME of this trouble MAY be racially or religiously motivated, but I would say that the LARGE majority is just bored kids being little shits, like bored kids of any colour or religion are.

The incident may have been racial, but nothing says to me it was, the kids didn't say anything racially motivated from what I read. I just think it's wrong to assume it was a muslim/jewish stand off when it could equally been a youth/elderly stand off or a locals/tourist thing.

the kids were violent shits, that is not in debate, but we don't know for sure why they were.

So do i get this right. You have lived in the area for 15 years? What religion do you reckon they might have been then? Big Hindu and Sikh population is there......

 

[laptop]

have Jack the Ripper walks been attacked?

Not that I've heard of.

But they need to be

 

[Bristly Pioneer]

maybe they didn't practice religion at all?

certainly the group of asian kids who get drunk in the park around the back of my house most evenings can't consider themselves strict non-drinking muslims

 

[Spion]

According to the law for a crime to be classified as a race/hate crime it has to be felt by the victim that they were being targetted due to their race/religon etc..

I wonder how this works out in cases that result in death?

 

[invisibleplanet]

We're missing any actual evidence that this was an anti-semitic incident.

It was obviously anti-social and quite probably racial in the broadest sense, but on the basis of the fragment of 'news' posted we've no idea there was any intent based on last Sunday being holocaust day

With this thread tho, JHE's work here is done.

So are you saying it might have been something more obvious maybe - for example, American-sounding accents - that precipitated the shower of stones from these East-End Thugs who stoned these tourists as they stood outside a

"former Jewish maternity home in Underwood Road, now used as social services offices, which was on his tour as a place of interest where playwright Arnold Whesker and showbiz comedian Lionel Bart were born."

The place the tourists were looking at had no connection to Holocaust Memorial Day other than that the tour was held on the same day as Holocaust Memorial Day).