Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[ska invita]

You've got to admire the brass neck of the party establishment...

​

As opposed to the complete lack of concern about anybody willing to cough-up £25 solely to vote.

No wonder so many of the Blairite wing are selling this as a battle to defend the right of the NEC to govern on party matters, no matter how illogical, calculating or anti-democratic their decisions might be.
Draws you in, doesn't it?

its that contradiction that made me think it wouldnt pass in court.... sus

 

[brogdale]

its that contradiction that made me think it wouldnt pass in court.... sus

The judiciary don't deal in logic, morality or democracy, though.

 

[nino_savatte]

We need to bomb less countries

Fewer. We need to bomb fewer countries.

 

[brogdale]

You've got to admire the brass neck of the party establishment...

​

As opposed to the complete lack of concern about anybody willing to cough-up £25 solely to vote.

No wonder so many of the Blairite wing are selling this as a battle to defend the right of the NEC to govern on party matters, no matter how illogical, calculating or anti-democratic their decisions might be.
Draws you in, doesn't it?

That all important lower case "n" in new.

 

[two sheds]

That's a horribly simplistic, compressed and historically-inaccurate representation of what actually happened.

That doesn’t surprise me.

The post-war Social Contract was capital agreeing to certain conditions for fear of social unrest -and therefore affected profits.

Isn’t that a horribly simplistic, compressed and historically-inaccurate representation of what actually happened?

Yes capital “agreed” but it was more complicated than just that. We were going through a murderous war when Beveridge wrote his report. Whatever else he believed in, he believed in full employment, and the report itself was widely seen as inspirational (10 things you may not know about the Beveridge report).

Bevin was Minister for Labour at the time and you’re not telling me he was a representative of capital. Britain was nearly bankrupt but Attlee influenced by Bevin still implemented nearly all its election promises after the landslide victory in 1945.

While Beveridge's "five giants" were used as political material, a quick analysis shows that none of them have been conquered, and that from '45-onward, most of what has happened has been the amelioration of the most egregious social harms caused by capitalism, not the curing of them. They can't be cured because that too would undermine capitalist logic.

Well the ‘five giants’ were what we’d call an Aim, weren’t they. “Conquering” full employment, public ownership of essential industries, proper universal housing and benefits and free healthcare and education is a bit of a fucking harsh requirement for any government. Has anyone done that in the history of the world? Is it even possible to conquer them (which suggests for all time)? England didn’t win the World Cup that year either the bastards but I wouldn’t hold that against them.

And I know it’s seen as cheating but what was the alternative? You’ve very strongly condemned that social democratic government, which suggests that there must have been an obvious alternative strategy that they could have pursued. I suppose they could have nationalized the banks and insurance companies for example, but then wouldn’t we have been treated like a pariah state like Cuba? Or we could have aligned with Soviet communism as some of the trades unions and others wanted to do, but I don’t think that would have worked out very well either.

It would have taken virtually a worldwide workers’ revolution to do what you’re demanding. Social democracy for 30 years delivered full employment, built habitable housing, and brought public ownership of essential industries along with free health and education. Those are the important things that affect peoples’ lives, and what a socialist government of any variety should also tackle. Demanding that they should have broken up capitalism too seems like dogma replacing practical improvements.

/disclaimer I’m not really keen on adversarial political discussions when I’m broadly in favour of what the other person says (and particularly as here where I know a lot less about the background material), but it’s clearly urban’s way so I'm having a go.

As for neoliberalism, it wasn't pioneered in the UK, and it wasn't pioneered by Thatcher. It wasn't even really pioneered in Chile, although that's the first site where it was seen in it's full -murderous - effect. What Thatcher - or more realistically,Sir Keith Joseph and Allen Walters - pioneered in the UK was a form of monetarism, which is often a concomitant of neoliberalism.

Interesting, ta. Monetarism is much better word than neoliberalism in explanation, and Blair did accept Thatcher’s changes and he and Brown continued along the same lines so that seems to cover through to today.

 

[brogdale]

Fewer. We need to bomb fewer countries.

Or lesser countries.*

*Less likely to defend themselves/retaliate.

 

[nino_savatte]

Or lesser countries.*

*Less likely to defend themselves/retaliate.

Yes, as in "we need to bomb lesser countries" because of their relative status to us.

 

[brogdale]

Monetarism is much better word than neoliberalism in explanation, and Blair did accept Thatcher’s changes and he and Brown continued along the same lines so that seems to cover through to today.

It really isn't.
The macro-economic policy of 'tight money' was merely a means by which the state transitioned from one economic stop-gap to the next. Of the 3 main 'fixes' to the neoliberal 'capital strike' attempted by OECD states, inflation was the first. When this policy threatened to curtail processes of accumulation, governments were compelled to 'squeeze' inflation out of the economy and substitute stimulation in the form of public debt.
Hence 'monetarism' was just one facet of the macro-economic management of neoliberalism.

 

[two sheds]

It really isn't.
The macro-economic policy of 'tight money' was merely a means by which the state transitioned from one economic stop-gap to the next. Of the 3 main 'fixes' to the neoliberal 'capital strike' attempted by OECD states, inflation was the first. When this policy threatened to curtail processes of accumulation, governments were compelled to 'squeeze' inflation out of the economy and substitute stimulation in the form of public debt.
Hence 'monetarism' was just one facet of the macro-economic management of neoliberalism.

I like monetarism more because it's much more readily understandable to people who don't have a political background.

The 'capital strike' has been since 2008 or do you mean against the New Deal? The three fixes were inflation, then stimulation in the form of public debt, and then a third?

 

[brogdale]

I like monetarism more because it's much more readily understandable to people who don't have a political background.

The 'capital strike' has been since 2008 or do you mean against the New Deal? The three fixes were inflation, then stimulation in the form of public debt, and then a third?

Since the late 60's/early 70's.

3rd 'fix' = Private debt.

 

[DotCommunist]

I'm not good with graphs but something about that one is screaming THIEF! WHERES THE MONEY GOING?

 

[butchersapron]

Monetarism and neo-liberalism are different things. Not different words for the same thing. The former is tight control of money, restricting the operations of financial capital, the other is letting it have ful rein. /bullying.

 

[brogdale]

I'm not could with graphs but something about that one is screaming THIEF! WHERES THE MONEY GOING?

I think you're under-estimating your graphic literacy.

 

[two sheds]

ta brogdale interesting I'd not seen about the capital strike. And there's a graph that I think shows precisely where the money went (although there may be better ones).



One of the things that needs to be considered is why the PWSC broke down. Was that related to the capital strike? One official version is:

During the 1960s and 1970s, the main parties competed to reverse Britain’s relative economic decline. There was a growing awareness that the economic league tables showed that Britain was at the wrong end for figures regarding strikes, productivity, inflation, economic growth and rising living standards.

Virtually all European countries, except for Britain, had so-called 'economic miracles'. Britain was often described as the 'sick man of Europe'. The targets for blame included: failure to invest in new plant and machinery; restrictive working practices and outdated attitudes on the shop floor ('us and them'); amateurish management; loss of markets; and rise of competition.

BBC - History - British History in depth: Thatcherism and the End of the Post-War Consensus

 

[brogdale]

The fear diminished.

 

[DrRingDing]

Is this your shit way of saying you've joined the labour party?

Have I fuck. But I won't sneer at those that have.

 

[butchersapron]

Have I fuck. But I won't sneer at those that have.

Course you won't.

 

[andysays]

You've got to admire the brass neck of the party establishment...

​

As opposed to the complete lack of concern about anybody willing to cough-up £25 solely to vote.

No wonder so many of the Blairite wing are selling this as a battle to defend the right of the NEC to govern on party matters, no matter how illogical, calculating or anti-democratic their decisions might be.
Draws you in, doesn't it?

Out of interest, anyone know how much in monthly subs someone who joined the LP six months ago would have paid by now?

 

[DrRingDing]

Course you won't.

I'm conflicted. The PLP and those that back them are mainly filth. The party as a whole appears to have shifted.

 

[DrRingDing]

The reslections and the right to recall will shift the power from the PLP to the CLPs. I hope they suceed.

 

[brogdale]

Out of interest, anyone know how much in monthly subs someone who joined the LP six months ago would have paid by now?

I think that's about £24. (6 x £4 approx pcm)

 

[andysays]

I think that's about £24. (6 x £4 approx pcm)

So someone who joined up six months ago "solely to vote" has by now made an almost identical financial contribution to someone who paid the £25 supporter's fee entitling them to vote but nothing else...

 

[brogdale]

So someone who joined up six months ago "solely to vote" has by now made an almost identical financial contribution to someone who paid the £25 supporter's fee entitling them to vote but nothing else...

Yep, win-win for the Blairites.

 

[Cwmflame]

I doubt Barrybados is flocking to the cause, either. They do have those fancy coffees in the cafe on Barry Island so probably too elite for the message.

Why pseudo-local boyo? He lived in Ponty for his entire schooling until sixth-form.... Went to Coed-y-lan school.

 

[Plumdaff]

Why pseudo-local boyo? He lived in Ponty for his entire schooling until sixth-form.... Went to Coed-y-lan school.

He grew up in Barry and went to Barry Comp. Barry isn't in the Valleys. This isn't contested.

 

[belboid]

Sheffield Central voted not to nominate anyone last night (bloody liberals). Heeley went 51-47 Corbyn, Brightside & Hillsborough 17-10 Corbyn.

The last one was delegates only, have there been any like that'd ones anyone know? Caused some kerfuffle locally.

 

[Cid]

Sheffield Central voted not to nominate anyone last night (bloody liberals). Heeley went 51-47 Corbyn, Brightside & Hillsborough 17-10 Corbyn.

The last one was delegates only, have there been any like that'd ones anyone know? Caused some kerfuffle locally.

Central is a delegate only vote, although eligible members could attend the meeting. Delegates elected back in May/June.

 

[J Ed]

Sheffield Central voted not to nominate anyone last night (bloody liberals). Heeley went 51-47 Corbyn, Brightside & Hillsborough 17-10 Corbyn.

The last one was delegates only, have there been any like that'd ones anyone know? Caused some kerfuffle locally.

Louise Haigh won't be happy. She's been increasingly vocal about her support for the coup, which probably explains the close CLP vote.

 

[Plumdaff]

I think any vote my CLP would hold would be delegate only, and we haven't had our AGM because of the ban on meetings. I think it would still go Corbyn which may be why there's been no sign of it happening.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

good discussion from Novara ^