Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[brogdale]

James Butler has written a long piece in the latest LRB which is well worth a read - a fairly clear-sighted look at the failings (and successes) of the Corbyn project. Make some time for it.

James Butler · Failed Vocation: The Corbyn Project

It is an intellectual vice on the left to think that because the world is best understood in terms of the operation of...

www.lrb.co.uk

Finally made the time, and yeah...it's done what any reasonable review should..left me looking forward to when the books go to paperback and getting them.

The reviewer's distillation of the demise of the project covers (for us on here) fairly familiar themes, but I thought it was interesting to pinpoint with such accuracy The day the music died.

 

[cantsin]

lol ok. I guess there was no problem then. Thank god they've unmasked this fiend.

kinda pointless, nitty little response this

 

[killer b]

it's all pointless. we keep having the same argument over and over and then when we come back to it everyone's back in the same fucking trench. forgive me for expressing frustration occasionally.

 

[cantsin]

I went and had a look at Nadia Whittome's twitter, and she gave a different account of the meeting to this. Who should I believe, her or this random dude?

will guess yr going to go with the AWL backed MP ( who had won local nomination via pretty dodgy means by all accounts ) , who's falling in behind the Starmerite line on Notts East that is based around the idea of :

a grown man

feeling unsafe

on a Zoom call

in his own kitchen,

cos others disagreed with him re: Corbyn's suspension / the right to debate it

and therefore the branch chair being suspended etc


so fill yr boots champ, no bad cld possibly come from this new ' feeling unsafe ( REMOTELY ) due to subject being discussed ' precedent being established

 

[killer b]

I guess you're going to go with the conspiracy theorist & hustler Kerry Anne Mendoza then, 'champ'. Great stuff.

 

[splonkydoo]

Because the report's findings are broadly correct. I expect there's a broad range of political view among the board members of the EHRC (which Alasdair Henderson doesn't 'head up') - one of them being a right-wing git isn't at all surprising.

Well this would be fucking hilarious if it's true

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A left wing newspaper in the UK is trying to stir up opposition against a member of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) based on him ‘liking’ a Tweet by me. Wait till they find out that the Cameron government tried to persuade me to be on the EHRC myself.</p>&mdash; Douglas Murray (@DouglasKMurray) <a href="">November 30, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[cantsin]

I guess you're going to go with the conspiracy theorist & hustler Kerry Anne Mendoza then, 'champ'. Great stuff.

unfortunately, she's right some of the time - and there' no conspiracy here, it's all in plain sight, as is so often the case

 

[cantsin]

I guess you're going to go with the conspiracy theorist & hustler Kerry Anne Mendoza then, 'champ'. Great stuff.

unfortunately, she's right some of the time - and there' no conspiracy here, it's all in plain sight, as is so often the case

 

[Shechemite]

I got barred (they used the word barred) from a zoom call back in April because some antisemites felt unsafe for me to be there. I prefer it that way round

 

[cantsin]

( ouch, not sure what happened there)

 

[bimble]

All the time that's been spent on the trashing of the EHRC looks a bit of a waste of energy to me. Don't know if all that is why i haven't seen anything much about the report they did last week that found the May government had broken the law with its 'hostile environment' policies.

 

[bimble]

I got barred (they used the word barred) from a zoom call back in April because some antisemites felt unsafe for me to be there. I prefer it that way round

Seriously? A labour one?

 

[Shechemite]

The ‘safer spaces’ nonsense was pushed by the left, and before it became a feature of the labour/AS argy.

Bit rich for right on lefty types to be moaning that their silly ideas end up biting them on the bum

Incidentally I got banned from an (actual physical) meeting back in 2018 because some antisemites (and an anti-vax/anti-psych loon) felt unsafe to have me there.

 

[Shechemite]

Seriously? A labour one?

Nah it was some pointless disability activism one. Would have just have been lots of anoraks going about WHY WE NEED THE SOCIAL MODEL, and pulling rank over who’s been secretary of this or that group for the longest.

You’ve really not witnessed activism till you’ve seen us crips and nutters do activism. It’s validating I guess

 

[Shechemite]

ouch

If you feel unsafe just let us know

 

[cantsin]

The ‘safer spaces’ nonsense was pushed by the left, and before it became a feature of the labour/AS argy.

Bit rich for right on lefty types to be moaning that their silly ideas end up biting them on the bum

Incidentally I got banned from an (actual physical) meeting back in 2018 because some antisemites (and an anti-vax/anti-psych loon) felt unsafe to have me there.

safe spaces / triggers etc is v much of ID pol / ("woke " ) culture, not really Lab Left ( or left - left generally ) - the convergence point was / is no platforming fascists and the like, and it is complex terrain ( v easy to end up on Toby Young / Lozza Fox side of the fence if not careful)

 

[Shechemite]

corbynism (as a movement) was an alliance that included the idpol-left. It wasn’t all Jurassic Stalinists

 

[cantsin]

corbynism (as a movement) was an alliance that included the idpol-left. It wasn’t all Jurassic Stalinists

deffo some of that involved, as well as some Jurassic Stalinists - and think, eg : Tankies etc vs Trans rights is an area where the idea of 'safe spaces' does have some value imo, ie : trans folk who are genuinely afraid to be in the same room as Terfs and their allies.

Can also see why some jewish peeps wldn't necc feel safe in a room full of Gallowayists / Workers GB / Palestine Live brigade.

It's just the 'zoom call in yr kitchen with Notts East CLP having a standard ding dong' thing I can't get past

 

[Treacle Toes]

It's just the 'zoom call in yr kitchen with Notts East CLP having a standard ding dong' thing I can't get past

It may be that the person who said that meant 'generally' not just in that particular moment.

 

[steveseagull]

The unsafe guy in the kitchen has also called from every member of Jewish Voice for Labour to be purged from the party. Yep he wanted a mass purging of Jews from the party. he also had a Twitter account which mainly went after and abused left wing Jews horrendously.

he now appears to have changed his story about what happened.

Looks like it was 100% performance art to me.

 

[cantsin]

The unsafe guy in the kitchen has also called from every member of Jewish Voice for Labour to be purged from the party. Yep he wanted a mass purging of Jews from the party. he also had a Twitter account which mainly went after and abused left wing Jews horrendously.

he now appears to have changed his story about what happened.

Looks like it was 100% performance art to me.

with his Twitter account locked, can I ask where you're seeing the change in his account of what happened ?

 

[Brainaddict]

I've said it before, but watching twitter spats today I find something so odd about a certain section of the Labour left piling into the trenches for Corbyn (often claiming as they do so that anti-semitism in the LP doesn't need to be addressed). Michael Walker even claimed on twitter that they have no choice but to do this. But there is a choice. Just as there was a choice for Corbyn whether he left out one paragraph from his statement that would clearly have no positive effect on anyone. The choice at this point is to fight for left policy positions or to fight for Corbyn. The latter will prevent the former, that is clearly the trap that has been laid, and the only plan these people have is to get further into the trap. I'm so weirded out by the people who think that this, this of all things, is the principled point on which they will sacrifice themselves. Not poverty alleviation, not working class power, not public ownership. This. It's like watching a mass death wish. Sometimes it seems to me the left loves to pick battles that it can't win. Pragmatism isn't always centrism people. You can be pragmatically radical. So an injustice has been done to Corbyn. Not the first, not the last, he'll live. The Labour movement does not exist to save Jeremy Corbyn.

I guess the 'we have no choice' narrative comes from the idea that if anyone says anything outside the official line about anti-semitism after this they'll be slung out the party. Firstly, I don't think that's true. As I say, this was a trap laid for the left and it was sprung on Corbyn as a figurehead. Secondly, maybe you should stop talking about anti-semitism except to challenge it where you see it. Try talking about, I dunno, the distribution of wealth in society instead, or something of that nature.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I've said it before, but watching twitter spats today I find something so odd about a certain section of the Labour left piling into the trenches for Corbyn (often claiming as they do so that anti-semitism in the LP doesn't need to be addressed). Michael Walker even claimed on twitter that they have no choice but to do this. But there is a choice. Just as there was a choice for Corbyn whether he left out one paragraph from his statement that would clearly have no positive effect on anyone. The choice at this point is to fight for left policy positions or to fight for Corbyn. The latter will prevent the former, that is clearly the trap that has been laid, and the only plan these people have is to get further into the trap. I'm so weirded out by the people who think that this, this of all things, is the principled point on which they will sacrifice themselves. Not poverty alleviation, not working class power, not public ownership. This. It's like watching a mass death wish. Sometimes it seems to me the left loves to pick battles that it can't win. Pragmatism isn't always centrism people. You can be pragmatically radical. So an injustice has been done to Corbyn. Not the first, not the last, he'll live. The Labour movement does not exist to save Jeremy Corbyn.

I guess the 'we have no choice' narrative comes from the idea that if anyone says anything outside the official line about anti-semitism after this they'll be slung out the party. Firstly, I don't think that's true. As I say, this was a trap laid for the left and it was sprung on Corbyn as a figurehead. Secondly, maybe you should stop talking about anti-semitism except to challenge it where you see it. Try talking about, I dunno, the distribution of wealth in society instead, or something of that nature.

Maybe, just maybe, if the Labour right wing stopped slinging around false accusations of widespread anti semitism in the party the left would shut up. But the right won't do that. Indeed they continue with their unjust allegations, always vague, general and imprecise, and are using it to attack the left, not the Tories note. They don't talk much about distribution of wealth or something of that nature. Angela Rayner was talking the other day about expelling thousands of antisemites. Where the fuck does she think they've been hiding?

 

[bimble]

he also had a Twitter account which mainly went after and abused left wing Jews horrendously.

he now appears to have changed his story about what happened.

Looks like it was 100% performance art to me.

I had a look at him yesterday, or rather waded briefly through the character assassinations mentioning his name and rallying people around old screenshots of his as he'd already locked his account.
My impression is that whoever he is he's been trying to tread a very narrow & lonely path through the whole thing, he went after 'gnasher' (do you know who i mean? ) & those hysterical voices, made enemies of all of those ages ago but now of course he's been firmly stuck in the enemy box by both sides. You and loads of other people apparently think he joined in that meeting in order to stage a big fake flounce and i don't give anything like enough of a shit to try to change your mind. Just all seems a ridiculous waste of energy the whole thing.

 

[cantsin]

I had a look at him yesterday, or rather waded briefly through the character assassinations mentioning his name and rallying people around old screenshots of his as he'd already locked his account.
My impression is that whoever he is he's been trying to tread a very narrow & lonely path through the whole thing, he went after 'gnasher' (do you know who i mean? ) & those hysterical voices, made enemies of all of those ages ago but now of course he's been firmly stuck in the enemy box by both sides. You and loads of other people apparently think he joined in that meeting in order to stage a big fake flounce and i don't give anything like enough of a shit to try to change your mind. Just all seems a ridiculous waste of energy the whole thing.

this is interesting, and for me, deffo alters the picture a bit ( and muddies / confuses it considerably ) - Like Tom Wainright on there ( and Marlon Gutman sometimes ) , they're are fervent jewsh anti anti semites on twitter, v anti Corbynite ( not always Corbyn ) , but you know they're coming from a decent place, however off the rails it all gets.

And on the other hand, just seen that Wolfie / Tooting Popular character , actually being proud / open re : his Sally Easman / LLV garbage associations , and clashes with Lapsley over it

 

[cantsin]

The unsafe guy in the kitchen has also called from every member of Jewish Voice for Labour to be purged from the party. Yep he wanted a mass purging of Jews from the party. he also had a Twitter account which mainly went after and abused left wing Jews horrendously.

he now appears to have changed his story about what happened.

Looks like it was 100% performance art to me.

now it seems Nadia Whithome is tweaking her account on what happened / softening the more alarmist edges.

I know everyone sees all this as internal storm in teacup bullsh*t, but hard not to think that NW has potentially caused herself some long term problems here. With so few allies in the PLP, the labour Left has long memories on this stuff, and it's going to be hard to forget that her innacurate ( at best - dishonest at worst ) account of the evening seemed to emerge as quickly as Lee Harpin's bullsh*t on the night.

 

[killer b]

this is interesting, and for me, deffo alters the picture a bit ( and muddies / confuses it considerably )

What does it change about the guy who you've been confidently attacking on this thread, on the say so of mendoza etc?

 

[Shechemite]

Tom’s not Jewish. Nice fella

 

[cantsin]

What does it change about the guy who you've been confidently attacking on this thread, on the say so of mendoza etc?

no offence, but can't be arsed with your (default, for me) tone at the moment, life's too short etc

( but fyi : as someone who doesn't follow her on soc media, was only aware of Mendoza's response to this Nott East stuff via yr goodself )

 

[belboid]

I've said it before, but watching twitter spats today I find something so odd about a certain section of the Labour left piling into the trenches for Corbyn (often claiming as they do so that anti-semitism in the LP doesn't need to be addressed). Michael Walker even claimed on twitter that they have no choice but to do this. But there is a choice. Just as there was a choice for Corbyn whether he left out one paragraph from his statement that would clearly have no positive effect on anyone. The choice at this point is to fight for left policy positions or to fight for Corbyn. The latter will prevent the former, that is clearly the trap that has been laid, and the only plan these people have is to get further into the trap. I'm so weirded out by the people who think that this, this of all things, is the principled point on which they will sacrifice themselves. Not poverty alleviation, not working class power, not public ownership. This. It's like watching a mass death wish. Sometimes it seems to me the left loves to pick battles that it can't win. Pragmatism isn't always centrism people. You can be pragmatically radical. So an injustice has been done to Corbyn. Not the first, not the last, he'll live. The Labour movement does not exist to save Jeremy Corbyn.

I guess the 'we have no choice' narrative comes from the idea that if anyone says anything outside the official line about anti-semitism after this they'll be slung out the party. Firstly, I don't think that's true. As I say, this was a trap laid for the left and it was sprung on Corbyn as a figurehead. Secondly, maybe you should stop talking about anti-semitism except to challenge it where you see it. Try talking about, I dunno, the distribution of wealth in society instead, or something of that nature.

I hear this a lot from those who joined under Corbyn and who have enjoyed their time in the party for whatever reason. ‘Forget the past and just move on’.

It’s obviously right that the left needs to do more than just react to whatever shit is thrown at us, but there is less urgency to do so considering an election is probably years off and there is fuck all discussion about policy nationally. When there have been wider discussions, eg on holding Starmer to his ten pledges, the left are threatened with losing the whip and we get slagged off in meetings for pointing it out.

branch or clp meetings rarely got to discuss such issues at the moment because they’re not ‘pertinent’ - there’s no conference coming up or issues in parliament to make it relevant.

there are positive things that could be proposed, particularly around developing political education materials that have been promised for the last five years and supporting any workers actions that are taking place and, yup, let’s absolutely go for them.

but discussions of expulsions and disciplining of members and officials has ALWAYS been part of labour meetings so there’s no way they will disappear now. The implementation of the ehrc findings absolutely requires a broad discussion within the party - even Mandelson recognises the issues with doing so - so to bar discussion was never going to work.