Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[redsquirrel]

All that needs to be argued is that remaining in the single market like this causes economic pain and brings no progressive benefit. That's the argument against remaining in the EU like this. You may want to remain in a very different way, in which case you could set out its benefits, but you have to admit that your alternative remain isn't going to happen so it's not really directly relevant when considering the pros and cons of the various remains that can happen.

Weak as crap. And the same argument used by centralists since the word dot. Oh well it would be great to vote for socialist party but they aren't going to get into power so vote for New Labour instead. If you're going to argue this crap at least have the honesty to admit you're no more a socialist than Toybee - this is exactly the same argument she used in favour of a vote for Cooper.

 

[SpackleFrog]

IF a Lexit was ever on the agenda this might be a conversation worth having. It never was.

You're right, it's never been on the agenda in the mainstream. Whose fault is that?

 

[SpackleFrog]

How so? There is no way Labour can make a majority in this parliament. Tory plus DUP numbers prevent that. So the VoNC wouldn't be called under the illusion that Labour could form a govt, and nor would it need to be. It would be called to bring this govt down and force an election.

I think it's hard to judge exactly how things will play out once May's deal has been voted down. I suspect that a lot more things will suddenly seem possible.

I think a VoNC would pass regardless of what DUP do. But why would a VoNC mean an election?

 

[killer b]

I'm not saying anyone is biding their time or playing the long game but that seems to be what you're saying?

Party brexit policy is different from the battle for internal control.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

All that needs to be argued is that remaining in the single market like this causes economic pain and brings no progressive benefit. That's the argument against remaining in the EU like this. You may want to remain in a very different way, in which case you could set out its benefits, but you have to admit that your alternative remain isn't going to happen so it's not really directly relevant when considering the pros and cons of the various remains that can happen.

Weak as crap. And the same argument used by centralists since the word dot. Oh well it would be great to vote for socialist party but they aren't going to get into power so vote for New Labour instead. If you're going to argue this crap at least have the honesty to admit you're no more a socialist than Toybee - this is exactly the same argument she used in favour of a vote for Cooper.

This is a tory-led nationalist, xenophobic brexit that is likely to bring economic pain and regressive, not progressive measures - just see the latest immigration plans. That's argument enough against brexit. You want to build a socialist future? So do I. You don't do it by supporting this.

What is weak as crap is to in any way want any of the current brexit plans to do anything other than crash and burn, leading to a cancellation of the whole thing. To wilfully want things to get worse with no plan whatsoever for how that might be of any longer-term benefit. That's weak.

 

[killer b]

I think a VoNC would pass regardless of what DUP do.

How?

 

[SpackleFrog]

How?

I think there are plenty of Tories who would like a new govt to be formed at a suitable time.

 

[killer b]

there are zero tories who would vote through a no confidence motion in the government right now. zero.

 

[SpackleFrog]

This is a tory-led nationalist, xenophobic brexit that is likely to bring economic pain and regressive, not progressive measures - just see the latest immigration plans. That's argument enough against brexit. You want to build a socialist future? So do I. You don't do it by supporting this.

What is your strategy for a Socialist future though? At what point will we be strong enough to break with neoliberalism and put forward a Socialist plan? Because I'm concerned that if the left is not breaking with neoliberalism then it's very unlikely that anything will ever be led by anyone but racist Tories -whether they are pro or anti EU.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

All that needs to be argued is that remaining in the single market like this causes economic pain and brings no progressive benefit. That's the argument against remaining in the EU like this. You may want to remain in a very different way, in which case you could set out its benefits, but you have to admit that your alternative remain isn't going to happen so it's not really directly relevant when considering the pros and cons of the various remains that can happen.

Weak as crap. And the same argument used by centralists since the word dot. Oh well it would be great to vote for socialist party but they aren't going to get into power so vote for New Labour instead. If you're going to argue this crap at least have the honesty to admit you're no more a socialist than Toybee - this is exactly the same argument she used in favour of a vote for Cooper.

It's this miserable lack of ambition, allied to a smug head patting superiority, that gives us Tory Governments. People work out Labour and Tory are two cheeks of the same arse. Corbyn and McDonnell had a chance to dismantle the state of affairs post the referendum result but bottled/blew it.

ETA - not by you, but the poster you replied to.

 

[SpackleFrog]

there are zero tories who would vote through a no confidence motion in the government right now. zero.

Maybe not quite zero, but close enough, sure. But it won't happen now, because May delayed the vote.

How about in early February when Brexit is just a month away?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What is your strategy for a Socialist future though? At what point will we be strong enough to break with neoliberalism and put forward a Socialist plan? Because I'm concerned that if the left is not breaking with neoliberalism then it's very unlikely that anything will ever be led by anyone but racist Tories -whether they are pro or anti EU.

That's a different discussion though. The faulty logic 'something needs to be done; this is something; so this must be done' is all I see from those wanting the UK to leave the EU on terms dictated by the nationalist right.

 

[SpackleFrog]

That's a different discussion though. The faulty logic 'something needs to be done; this is something; so this must be done' is all I see from those wanting the UK to leave the EU on terms dictated by the nationalist right.

I don't think it's a different discussion. You may not like the 'something' proposed and hey I'm not trying to claim this is an ideal situation, but you can't pose 'nothing' in response.

 

[killer b]

Maybe not quite zero, but close enough, sure. But it won't happen now, because May delayed the vote.

How about in early February when Brexit is just a month away?

Still zero.

If government policy switches to explicitly no deal, then perhaps.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't think it's a different discussion. You may not like the 'something' proposed and hey I'm not trying to claim this is an ideal situation, but you can't pose 'nothing' in response.

I can if the 'something' is worse than 'nothing', which in the case of brexit I absolutely think it is.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Still zero.

If government policy switches to explicitly no deal, then perhaps.

Well, we'll see won't we?

 

[SpackleFrog]

I can if the 'something' is worse than 'nothing', which in the case of brexit I absolutely think it is.

I don't think you can advocate doing nothing in Tory Britain in 2018 and still claim to want a Socialist transformation.

 

[killer b]

Well, we'll see won't we?

£10 to the server fund if any Tory MP votes for a VONC against the government, outside of a no-deal brexit scenario.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't think you can advocate doing nothing in Tory Britain in 2018 and still claim to want a Socialist transformation.

I'm not advocating doing nothing. I'm simply at this point advocating not doing a particular thing.

In terms of Corbyn and Labour, it's not enough to claim that somehow, magically, you can do a brexit that brings benefits. That's just hot air. You need to set out clearly what it is you intend to do to solve various problems, increase the tax take by taxing the rich, building programs, education, health, benefits, nationalisations, etc etc etc. And a brexit would need to support doing those things. That would be a 'lexit'. But they don't even want to make those arguments, and they wouldn't be that easy to make, tbh: what is it exactly in their wishlist that the EU would block?

 

[SpackleFrog]

£10 to the server fund if any Tory MP votes for a VONC against the government, outside of a no-deal brexit scenario.

Is that bet? I'm not taking bets unless the £10 goes to me!

 

[SpackleFrog]

I'm not advocating doing nothing. I'm simply at this point advocating not doing a particular thing.

Yeah alright I know you're not advocating a Brexit of any kind. But what are you advocating? When they cancel Brexit shit is gonna get pretty wild. The future holds more turbulence and upheaval, not less.

 

[hash tag]

I just heard a rumour that Ivan Lewis has resigned. Because of past allegations or because of Corbyns attitude to anti semitism?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

That's a different discussion though. The faulty logic 'something needs to be done; this is something; so this must be done' is all I see from those wanting the UK to leave the EU on terms dictated by the nationalist right.

Even the dogs on the street could see that whilst a pandoras box of grievances propelled the referendum result at base there was a simple message - change.

And what has been the response? From the right a civil war about how to protect its interests going forward and from much of the the left an abysmal clinging to the single market and neo-liberal economic structures that have helped to drive the rebellion in the first place.

 

[hash tag]

Yahoo is now part of Oath

 

[killer b]

I just heard a rumour that Ivan Lewis has resigned. Because of past allegations or because of Corbyns attitude to anti semitism?

He has resigned from the party because of antisemitism, while suspended and under investigation for being a massive creep. He also claims the delay in the investigation into him being a massive creep (already ongoing for 12 months) is politically motivated.

 

[redsquirrel]

This is a tory-led nationalist, xenophobic brexit that is likely to bring economic pain and regressive, not progressive measures - just see the latest immigration plans. That's argument enough against brexit. You want to build a socialist future? So do I. You don't do it by supporting this.

Nobody has posted in support of "a tory-led nationalist, xenophobic brexit".

 

[mojo pixy]

It is what we're getting though. With some neoliberalism chucked in for the zeitgeist.

 

[SpackleFrog]

It is what we're getting though. With some neoliberalism chucked in for the zeitgeist.

Nah, we're getting Remain.

 

[Teaboy]

£10 to the server fund if any Tory MP votes for a VONC against the government, outside of a no-deal brexit scenario.

I think there is a scenario where things start looking like no Brexit at all and that may spur the ERG into action with the hope of toppling May and getting one of their own at the helm and win the subsequent election.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I think there is a scenario where things start looking like no Brexit at all and that may spur the ERG into action with the hope of toppling May and getting one of their own at the helm and win the subsequent election.

No chance. They don't have the numbers; they're irrelevant now.