Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[Teaboy]

No chance. They don't have the numbers; they're irrelevant now.

20 - 30 of them voting against their own government would be enough in a vonc.

I don't think it's going to happen but it is a potential scenario, I think.

 

[kebabking]

Still zero.

If government policy switches to explicitly no deal, then perhaps.

I doubt they'll go to a deliberate no deal stance - that's been May's strategy for the lest two years: kick the decision point down the road til people are faced with two really unappealing choices. She'll be talking about negotiation until 10.59, and the arch remainer tories will stick with her because she'll present them with something they want to see - only when the last minute has gone will she go for 'no deal', at which point it will be too late to do anything about it, and the remained can either have a Tory no deal government or a Labour no deal government - and they'll go for a Tory no deal government...

 

[SpackleFrog]

20 - 30 of them voting against their own government would be enough in a vonc.

I don't think it's going to happen but it is a potential scenario, I think.

I think it could easily happen and as you say it wouldn't need many but I suspect it'll come from the Remain wing.

 

[redsquirrel]

It is what we're getting though. With some neoliberalism chucked in for the zeitgeist.

Even if that is true, the responsibility of those policies lie with the government/the political class (or more accurately with capital) not with those that voted leave.

If a vote for leave was a vote for "a tory-led nationalist, xenophobic brexit" then a vote for Remain must have been a vote for anti-trade union laws. But of course neither is true, people voted for both for many different (sometimes contradictory) reasons. I know comrades that voted Remain, I know they weren't voting for neo-liberalism, they felt that Remain was the best option. I disagree with much of their reasoning but I absolutely don't doubt their intentions and they are not responsible for the actions of the EU, anymore than those people that voted Labour in 2010 were supporting austerity or those that voted Labour in 2005 were backing the Iraq war.

Governments use the argument that because people have voted for them they have a mandate for their policies, that because they got voted in they have a mandate for privatisation, PFI, attacks on the welfare state etc. But not only is that utter rubbish (we know strong majorities oppose the privatisation of public services) it actually reduces the strength of support that exists for class politics.

 

[mojo pixy]

I agree, but I wasn't casting aspersions on voters. I'm simply finding it hard to understand why someone who may have voted leave for reasons beyond those put forward by the official ''leave'' campaign would still, knowing how it's all going, still argue that Brexit** was in any way a good idea. The only argument for it as far as I'm concerned is ''it's what people voted for'' and while valid, that's the thinnest argument there is for supporting what's actually happening (as opposed to eg what we might want to happen instead and what we perhaps voted for, or with in mind).

**note, not ''leaving the EU'' but ''Brexit'', the tory branded version of same.

EtA, sorry, off-topic, wrong thread etc. I'm not demanding any explanation just washing my head.

 

[Supine]

I just heard a rumour that Ivan Lewis has resigned. Because of past allegations or because of Corbyns attitude to anti semitism?

His resignation letter doesn't hold back the punches

 

[Brainaddict]

I asked 'Brain Addict' to evidence his argument that 'economic pain is inevitable' post Brexit not from the representatives of the ruling class/m,embers of it. Can you see why there is a massive issue with supposed socialists quoting guff from twats like Rees Mogg, Blair etc? Can you see how this is narrowing the debate? How this boxes us all in to debating it on their terms?

I can't really prove a speculative scenario of course but it's more about reading the political dynamics. To put it more plainly, the EU wants the UK to have a miserable Brexit, and they are bigger than us. It's really that simple. This isn't even an argument for or against Brexit, or for or against Lexit. It's just about who has the power and what they want to do with it.

As for some of the other ideas, okay try to build a socialist future with a bunch of Blairite MPs if you want, but there's a reason Corbyn is playing a longer game and that's because you can't.

 

[Brainaddict]

This whole socialist Brexit thing is a lovely idea and might have happened in some distant future but, to repeat myself, there is no party capable of putting together a socialist government at the moment. You might as well say that Brexit would be better if we had a government of unicorns. As for a grassroots movement for a socialist Brexit, sure, in theory possible, but kind of hard to sell with a parliamentary party who would openly sabotage any such thing.

 

[Poi E]

So you mean the parliamentary road to socialism is out? Blimey.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I can't really prove a speculative scenario of course but it's more about reading the political dynamics. To put it more plainly, the EU wants the UK to have a miserable Brexit, and they are bigger than us. It's really that simple. This isn't even an argument for or against Brexit, or for or against Lexit. It's just about who has the power and what they want to do with it.

As for some of the other ideas, okay try to build a socialist future with a bunch of Blairite MPs if you want, but there's a reason Corbyn is playing a longer game and that's because you can't.

'Playing the long game' won't achieve anything.

 

[redsquirrel]

I agree, but I wasn't casting aspersions on voters.

Sorry I didn't mean to imply you have, I think you've been clear in outlining your disagreement with a leave vote while not simply dismissing those that did vote leave. But other's have made such an argument.

This whole socialist Brexit thing is a lovely idea and might have happened in some distant future but, to repeat myself, there is no party capable of putting together a socialist government at the moment. You might as well say that Brexit would be better if we had a government of unicorns.

Has anyone, on U75 or further afield, actually argued that the UK leaving the EU will result in a socialist Britain? I've not seen argue anything as silly as that. Some people have argued that Leave would help get a social democratic Labour government into power, others of us have argued that it opens opportunities for labour but no one's arguing that there will be a socialist government in the UK.

As for a grassroots movement for a socialist Brexit, sure, in theory possible, but kind of hard to sell with a parliamentary party who would openly sabotage any such thing.

This, or a similar argument has come up a few times now - that leaving the EU would be a good thing under the right conditions but the time isn't right, that the working class is too weak at this moment. And of course there is a certain amount of truth in it, are the present conditions the ones that you'd pick ideally for this fight, almost certainly not - but that goes for every fight!

During the recent ballot for industrial action by the UCU there were those that argued that it wasn't the right time, that the start of term was a terrible time to have a ballot. And they were completely correct, the timing of the ballot was crap (and was part of why we didn't get the turnout) but what's the alternative, that we accept the attack on conditions this time, but we'll really fight back next year! We've been saying that for years and the timing will not be any better next year.

Whether it's a workplace dispute like that or leaving the EU if we wait around for the right time we'll be waiting forever, there's always going to be a better time/conditions for a dispute, that's the nature of the fight. And we should not lose sight of the fact that many of our greatest victories came from dispute's that started under less than ideal conditions.

 

[Brainaddict]

So you mean the parliamentary road to socialism is out? Blimey.

This is a thread about Corbyn, and we were discussing what he is or is not capable of doing. Delivering a socialist Brexit comes under 'not', was my point.

 

[Artaxerxes]

So you mean the parliamentary road to socialism is out? Blimey.

Looking at current voters and voting trends coupled with the establishments livid determination never to treat a socialist like a serious human being.

Yes.

If we'd had a few more socialists coming out for Leave I might have given it a punt, instead we had "I'm not a racist" Farage, "look at the wogs" Johnson and Libertarian wunderkind Michael fucking Gove.

Realising I had to be on the Remian, status quo side with Cameron was still pretty depressing mind,

 

[mauvais]

I just heard a rumour that Ivan Lewis has resigned. Because of past allegations or because of Corbyns attitude to anti semitism?

He's our MP and unfortunately remains so. Useless. I suspect he really didn't want to go through his disciplinary and have to answer his sexual harassment accusers. The antisemitism topic is relevant - our area is strongly orthodox Jewish - but the timing is interesting.

 

[DotCommunist]

my deaf brother says its people, and he has no dog i the fight, politics is just weather to him. So case closed.



this bloke. For real.




I struggle to believe he didn't know who GA was

 

[killer b]

It's baffling - but then the other possibility, that he knowingly retweeted support for an unquestionably virulent anti-semite just in time for the politics lobby to have nothing else to write about for two weeks seem fantastical too.

 

[cantsin]

It's baffling - but then the other possibility, that he knowingly retweeted support for an unquestionably virulent anti-semite just in time for the politics lobby to have nothing else to write about for two weeks seem fantastical too.

he's jumped the shark this time

 

[killer b]

mate, he jumped the shark ages ago.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

It's baffling - but then the other possibility, that he knowingly retweeted support for an unquestionably virulent anti-semite just in time for the politics lobby to have nothing else to write about for two weeks seem fantastical too.

It's not his first offence though is it? And it's simply not credible that, given his deep 'interest' in antisemitism, he didn't know who GA was.

 

[killer b]

I agree it's not credible - but in which case what was he hoping to achieve?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I agree it's not credible - but in which case what was he hoping to achieve?

Jew baiting?

 

[Poi E]

Labour happy to work with the DUP, says McDonnell. Gordon Brown offered to advise them. They are fucked

 

[Shechemite]

Labour happy to work with the DUP, says McDonnell. Gordon Brown offered to advise them. They are fucked

I suppose labour want to prove it’s not just antisemitism they are ok with, but anti-catholic bigotry too.

 

[Lord Camomile]

They are a broad church.

 

[TopCat]

He's our MP and unfortunately remains so. Useless. I suspect he really didn't want to go through his disciplinary and have to answer his sexual harassment accusers. The antisemitism topic is relevant - our area is strongly orthodox Jewish - but the timing is interesting.

He is a sex pest red Tory c7nt.

 

[Shechemite]

He is a sex pest red Tory c7nt.

Yeah I’m hesitant to start applauding Lewis over his resignation.

That labour has a massive ‘problem’ with is beyond doubt though

 

[TopCat]

Is?

 

[Shechemite]

Yeah it’s not like one of their high profile MPs signed and promoted a petition in defence of Gilad fucking Atzmon is it?

(After bigging up Vannesa Beeley)

 

[SpackleFrog]

Labour happy to work with the DUP, says McDonnell. Gordon Brown offered to advise them. They are fucked

 

[paolo]

Oh my giddy aunt.

UK politics had gone from unusually unstable to completely surreal.