danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
Except, like I say, he knew exactly what he was saying and how his audience would hear it.
Jeremy Corbyn's time is up
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bimble
floofy
After which JC stepped up to defend his friend:
Stephen Sizer: Jeremy Corbyn MP Challenges Accusations of Anti-Semitism
^ this bit of writing by JC is quite interesting for including his personal understanding of what the word zionism means.
butchersapron
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And who the audience was. Every freak going it seems
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
And no, the joke was that no matter how they pretended, they weren't proper English schneider. They remain, as the audience would agree, a foreign body. A parasite
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
This is not like him not getting a mural. This is him painting the mural with nutter mates cheering him on. And now today...
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
The alternative to accepting that he knew what he was saying is that he's just so inept that he should keep his mouth shut at all times in case he accidentally praises racist murals or accidentally puts air quotes round "English" when referring to the nationality of strictly political Zionists.
The fact is that his statist leanings leave him adopting the position that "my enemy's enemies are my friends", so the impulse is to turn a blind eye to anti-semitism when it crops up in critcism of the actions and policies of the Israeli state. Its true that criticising the actions and policies of the Israeli state is not in itself anti-Semitic. It's also true that many supporters of the Israeli state want to draw that equivalence. But instead of challenging both that simplification and the antisemitism, he chose to turn a blind eye to the latter. With the effect that he's wallowed in it so long he can no longer see it.
The fact is that his statist leanings leave him adopting the position that "my enemy's enemies are my friends", so the impulse is to turn a blind eye to anti-semitism when it crops up in critcism of the actions and policies of the Israeli state. Its true that criticising the actions and policies of the Israeli state is not in itself anti-Semitic. It's also true that many supporters of the Israeli state want to draw that equivalence. But instead of challenging both that simplification and the antisemitism, he chose to turn a blind eye to the latter. With the effect that he's wallowed in it so long he can no longer see it.
What should Corbin do at this point, because this isn't going away.
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
There are a lot of codes, signs, symbolism and tropes in antisemitism that untrained eyes and ears will miss. (Like Jews not being proper English). Most untrained observers are mystified by the whole thing. I'm guessing that they'll be mystified by this latest gaffe too. So I don't think his polling will tumble or anything.
However, he has brought blinking into the light the nasty anti-Semitic current that the statist left has turned its simplistic "My enemy's enemies" blind eye to for decades. He can either decisively extract the Labour Party from that, or, flail around in it because he's too mired in the non condemnation impulse to know what to do. My guess is he'll keep doing the latter.
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
He’s not saying ‘parasite’. It’s a mild (if such a thing can be) and thoughtless cricket test. He’s perhaps saying English people should believe in fair play.
It’s always a mistake to nationalise, but it’s hardly Hitler. The problem is his previous with the mural, his associates and his taciturn self-righteousness which is no substitute for charm.
Grump
Well-Known Member
A lot of the accusations against Corbyn have clearly been using anything that could be twisted into an 'anti Semitic'' jibe simply to attack him. But this speech is different, it is clearly and openly anti Semitic. His problem is he says what he thinks will get him a pat on the back from people he admires, such as the Palestinians, without thinking through the consequences. I still don't think he is truly anti Jewish, but he is too stupid to be the party leader.
I'm certainly mystified, but then I've only just learned about it so I don't know the full bebop on the story. It doesn't sound like what he said was anti semitic.
So how can he extract the labour party from that? Is it just as simple as accepting the entirety of the IHRA?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yes that's def what the audience he is playing to would have heard. Let me remind you .a bunch of 911 loons and holocaust deniers . Prime target for some sublety.
I'm not sure I can agree with that. Call me naive but that analysis does seem a bit simplistic. I don't think he stupid and I'm not convinced he says things just to get plaudits. How can you back this up?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
He's not saying parasite because he doesn't have to with this audience. That's the bloody point.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
As for "hardly hitler", I never had you pegged for this sort of idiot. Never.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Maybe a thread for racist stuff that's hardly hitler would be timely. I mean. If its not a 12 year state led extermination drive it's barely worth mentioning.
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
It’s not a helpful quality to fail to discern between clumsy offence and virulent racism. Working class people have fled in droves from socialism because of it.
But I take your point about the audience. If you are right that’s a bigger deal than anything that is said here.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
And it's been the moralising left now behind corbyn that has driven that, not anti racists enacting that this long running squalid association is finally brought to proper light.. And its that same guilty bloody handed left now both defending and demanding it's left alone. Its hardly hitler ffs. Its only a little bit racism. Fuck that.
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
FFS Butchers the whole point of having a forum is to reach a nuanced, informed opinion. If everything is either evil or not we can just plant our flags and be done with it.
So, presumably you would now favour Corbyn stepping down? That’s not yet been the majority view of this board/thread.
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
What I mean is extract themselves from the "enemy's enemy" fallacy; stop refusing to condemn antisemitism from people he considers allies; stop the simplifications that cause him and the statist left these blind spots (Syria being another).
He could do that. But he probably doesn't know how to anymore.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Of course I wouldn't. Oh no its not been the view of the majority of the board. So what?
You dozy Labour cunts need waking up. This filth is now at the centre of your party. Do something about it. Right now.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
This is what wider politics is to these types though. There is no other way of doing it.
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
I’m not sure why you are going off on one to quite this level. During the last few pages people have discussed what was meant and gone as far as saying it paints a ‘worrying picture’. I’m not excusing it in the slightest, in fact I wonder how anyone immersed in left wing politics could use a cricket test. I’m merely saying on its own, isolated from the circumstance he might ride it out. But he has too much previous.
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
Well, I think that's right. So I don't think Corbyn can get Labour out of the mire.
So if the Labour left wants to solve this they need to get rid of that mindset. And get rid of him. If they don't, the Labour right just needs to bide its time and wait for him to collapse under his own ineptitude, and the Party's theirs again for the foreseeable.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Weird how their Pro Palestinism didn't extend to Syria. 20 000 anti regime Palestinian activists locked up death notices being sent out en masse. Starvation and death from the sky didn't merit a mention But when Israel is involved. Well it's up out the armchair every 5th Saturday 12 till 1 for 100% sure. Solidarity comrade.
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Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
How dare you claim I’m a Labour cunt. I’m my own sort of cunt thank you very much.
I believe you care what happens with Labour however illusory you consider electoral politics, so unpack why, given what you are saying, you wouldn’t want him to step down.
Liked as you made me lol.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Sounds like you want him to stand down not me. Why. For the want of something better would I? Am I lying when I say I don't?
Why is it necessary to get rid of him as well? Why is he key to this mindset? Surely anyone similarly left wing is going to have comparable views: pro palestine, etc. As long as that's the case they will always be targeted - regardless what they say.
I just don't believe Corbyn is the catalyst. I haven't seen him say or do anything that I feel comfortable calling racist. I could well be wrong, certainly. But it seems to me that much of this is about the kind of people conspiracy theory genmerally takes root in, which is to say people at the bottom of society; socially isolated and marginalised. These are the people I see that buy into, for example, the White Helmets conspiracies or the 'jews did xyz' theories. People who want easier answers than exist who want someone to blame. Not necessarily violent hatemongers, but just ignorant - dangerously so. Yes they need challenging and if Corbyn is consciously contributing to this then yes, my god, that's a problem.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
People like poor desperate Chris Williamson. People who can afford tickets to beautiful days, they might be able to run museums or have well paying public service jobs .They might be professors. They might be psychically morally and intellectually up shit creek. Doesn't mean they're poor.
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andysays
Love and solidarity
As a non-Labour party member who's a member of an affiliated union, I voted for Corbyn in the last leadership election. I certainly won't be voting for him again.
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