Jeremy Corbyn's time is up
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SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
But the examples involving Israel do not actually amount to antisemitism, as evidenced by the fact many Jews share the view that Israel is a racist entity.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
I know from Jewish friends that antisemitism from leftists, in particular Trotskyists, has been a problem since long before Corbyn's leadership. Perhaps recent events have just made it more likely that these people will be found out.
There's a great deal of scrutiny of momentum and Labour, whereas ten or twenty years back 'SWP member chats shit' would not have made any newspapers, being about as shocking and unexpected as the news that a dog had sniffed another dog's arsehole.
the list of examples is things that could be antisemitic, not things that are antisemitic.
bimble
floofy
The examples are a bit of a mess imo but what it says i think is that its antisemitic to say "that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor".
So 'a', in principle, rather than that its antisemitic to call the state that actually exists racist.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Anything could be antisemitic though. 'It's raining' is antisemitic if you add 'because of those damn Jews' on the end.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Yeah, it’s a neat way of inserting whatever you like into a list of examples of antisemitism.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Insightful as always, thanks for participating.
cantsin
Well-Known Member
at college 28 yrs ago, the tension between the UJS and the left / SWP was open / occasionally hostile. The Perdition ( Perdition (play) - Wikipedia ) tension was still there, SWP had just published ' Israel - America's Watchdog in the Middle East', David Hirsh, WP crank and now, somehow, Kings College academic / virulent 'anti left a/s campaigner' , was alwaya getting thrown out of Marxism, etc .
Obvs, the situation in Palestine, + in Mid East generally has only intensified since, eg : back then there didnt seem to be young, UK Muslims in the orbit of Labour or the Left in the same way, with (righteous ) fire in their bellys re: mid east / Palestine.
There was the odd racist cranks about,( I remember one getting bounced off a West end Palestine march ) , but now soc media allows space for this lot to form alliances with Icke fans, and post occupy / Anon / NWO / anti Bildeberg brigade etc etc ..... as soon as Corbo's long and principled support for the Palestinians became commonly known to this conspira-brigade , there's no doubt a vocal segment of them have been attracted to supporting Labour, online, and no doubt some have joined up - if anyone encounters them at CLP meets, would be interested to hear.
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bimble
floofy
can you be a bit more specific like say which of them do you think shouldn't be there ? Here they all are btw: Working Definition of Antisemitism
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Yeah, I was going to add that given that the IHRA makes specific reference to dependence on context, that I don’t have any particular issue with any of the examples given, where cited in good faith.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Deserved not one but two responses from you though.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
The last two are problematic, they say you can't blame Jews in general for the actions of the Israeli state (entirely fair) and then that there are things you can't say about Israeli state policy without being prejudiced against Jews in general.
I accept the points that the importance of context is explicitly mentioned, and that the 'Israel is racist' example refers to an Israeli state as a concept rather than the actual Israeli state which exists.
hot air baboon
Well-Known Member
Politics is no longer a contest of right against left but of right against far right. Israel has become more ethno-nationalist and less universalist; more Jewish and less Israeli. Mr Netanyahu, once regarded as a demagogue, often looks like a moderate next to many of his cabinet members.
Politics in Israel is increasingly nationalist
I'm not sure - by any objective yardstick - exactly what sort of positive press Israel is expecting to get from "the left".
The schism goes back decades ofcourse - people like the rabid neo-con David Horowitz split with the campus new left movement back in the 60's over it
Politics in Israel is increasingly nationalist
I'm not sure - by any objective yardstick - exactly what sort of positive press Israel is expecting to get from "the left".
The schism goes back decades ofcourse - people like the rabid neo-con David Horowitz split with the campus new left movement back in the 60's over it
bimble
floofy
I think you're right tbh. That's the one that sticks out for me too. Hopefully context would come into play here. As Godwin himself has said, '"If you're thoughtful about it and show some real awareness of history, go ahead and refer to Hitler when you talk about Trump, or any other politician..'
bimble
floofy
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
Does anyone know what this pricks history in the Labour party is? Is he actaully a Corbyn supporter?
mauvais
on reddit or something
I think some of what we're seeing is the belatedly successful product of a prior siege. When the media centrists went after Corbyn a year or two ago, for so long and so ridiculously overtly, it was very easy for supporters to write them off en masse. Now that it's Jewish voices criticising Labour, I suspect many out there have blundered right into the same pattern, made easy by some recent events ('existential threat' etc) even though it's far, far more problematic.
It's a massive free gift - in the short term - for the original detractors, bad for pretty much everyone else, especially Jews who through the self same process - except with either legitimate criticism or no involvement at all - come to be defined as hostile. That problem was already enabled via the visible forms of representation on political issues like Palestine, but it feels like this has broadened it to the national discourse.
It's a massive free gift - in the short term - for the original detractors, bad for pretty much everyone else, especially Jews who through the self same process - except with either legitimate criticism or no involvement at all - come to be defined as hostile. That problem was already enabled via the visible forms of representation on political issues like Palestine, but it feels like this has broadened it to the national discourse.
I had a look through his facebook when it broke, he seems to be a pretty typical loudmouth leftish meme-sharer - very little content beyond the boilerplate.
Dunno about his history in the party, but a google news search led me to an assault conviction in 2016
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
This isn't new - there have been 'jewish voices' attacking corbyn for anti-semitism from before his election as party leader. The anti-semitism element is no way new - it was present from the very start or 'belated' as part and parcel of the 'original detractors' detractions.
In the long term though, it's bringing things to a head and the cranks are being exposed and isolated (seems to me anyway - there's an awful lot of noise in every direction) - that should be a positive if they finally get their act together.
It did get out at the time iirc, although in much vaguer terms.
Seymour has just published this, which is good btw.
Once more on Labour and antisemitism | Richard Seymour on Patreon
Seymour has just published this, which is good btw.
Once more on Labour and antisemitism | Richard Seymour on Patreon
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
Sounds a lovely bloke.
Horrifying I'm sure, what's your agenda?
Excuse the pun, Barking!
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