Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[Louis MacNeice]

Ok, a socialist Govt should determine how and where children are educated, then.

How is that an answer to the question I asked?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[krtek a houby]

How is that an answer to the question I asked?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Tell me what to say then because I'm not sure what the answer is.

 

[cantsin]

Ok, a socialist Govt should determine how and where children are educated, then.

Nope, just simple equality of opportunity to all, as far as resources allow ( eg : no point people shuttling kids all over the place via private / public transport when we need to be slashing fuel consumption etc ) - equally funded / resourced schools will take away a lot of the need for array of choices etc

( though none of this will make that much difference if grotesque inequality still exists in every other facet of peoples lives, obvs).

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Tell me what to say then because I'm not sure what the answer is.

I asked you what the 'the right to chose how they wish their kids to be educated' actually meant in practice; what are the real choices and how are they able to be made? And what I get back is something about a 'socialist Govt' and now the above. To be honest you're not making a lot of sense. Why not go back to the questions and have a go at answering them...or asking for clarification of them if they aren't clear?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[krtek a houby]

I asked you what the 'the right to chose how they wish their kids to be educated' actually meant in practice; what are the real choices and how are they able to be made? And what I get back is something about a 'socialist Govt' and now the above. To be honest you're not making a lot of sense. Why not go back to the questions and have a go at answering them...or asking for clarification of them if they aren't clear?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

I think the best education and teachers should be available to all, without prejudice. But I'm not sure that the posh schools are going to be closed any time soon.

If I don't make sense it's because I'm not very clever and good at vocalising what I want to say. Apologies.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Ok. Do you not think there would be a backlash if these schools were shut, though? And just to clarify; I am not religious in the slightest - I'm not particularly in favour of them.

I'm more surprised that there isn't a massive backlash against the curriculum and agenda of some faith schools.

All children should enjoy a secular and progressive education and be given the opportunity to experiement with ideas,to understand science, to think and to know how to access learning. They should not have the teachings and medieval values of cranks shoved down their throat basically.

 

[DotCommunist]

I'm more surprised that there isn't a massive backlash against the curriculum and agenda of some faith schools.

they often work as feeders into the 'better' state schools of your town. Not officially of course but everyone knows it goes on. Whats a few skewed RE lessons? thinks parent. It'll get him into [insert ranked school name here]. Part of the sly cherry picking that goes on

 

[krtek a houby]

I'm more surprised that there isn't a massive backlash against the curriculum and agenda of some faith schools.

All children should enjoy a secular and progressive education and be given the opportunity to experiement with ideas,to understand science, to think and to know how to access learning. They should not have the teachings and medieval values of cranks shoved down their throat basically.

I agree. But there's a lot of these faith schools about. How do you end them without upsetting the parents?

 

[ElizabethofYork]

they often work as feeders into the 'better' state schools of your town. Not officially of course but everyone knows it goes on. Whats a few skewed RE lessons? thinks parent. It'll get him into [insert ranked school name here]. Part of the sly cherry picking that goes on

Absolutely that goes on. But why do the "better" state schools prefer to accept children from faith schools?

 

[DotCommunist]

good question. Praps one of our resident teaching people might have an answer cos I have not

 

[krtek a houby]

good question. Praps one of our resident teaching people might have an answer cos I have not

Maybe they believe the kids will be more obedient or "moral"?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I agree. But there's a lot of these faith schools about. How do you end them without upsetting the parents?

You end them by making clear that we are a secular country, and that whilst people are entitled to practise religion in their own time, in respect of education the plan is to give every kid the best chance possible to learn, think, develop skills and mix with people other faiths and none, background and cultures.

 

[Sprocket.]

I agree. But there's a lot of these faith schools about. How do you end them without upsetting the parents?

God knows!

 

[Smokeandsteam]

they often work as feeders into the 'better' state schools of your town. Not officially of course but everyone knows it goes on. Whats a few skewed RE lessons? thinks parent. It'll get him into [insert ranked school name here]. Part of the sly cherry picking that goes on

When I was at school the religious schools were seen as the 'best' local schools (non grammer or private). That's how I ended up at a catholic school of which there are loads in Birmingham.

When I look back on it now it's so clear that it was a dangerously backward method of education with banned books, the downplaying of really important science and damaging ideas and politics rammed into kids (and let's not even start with the dracionian 'disciplinary' system plus the weirdo priests and nuns)

 

[ViolentPanda]

Try comparing the membership, politics and organisation of Militant and Momentum; you'll see that apart from the initial big M they don't actually share much at all. Go on do some research.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

A chap from our local Momentum group (Lambeth & Southwark) was saying how he'd been in Workers' Power for years. He got a bit mardy when I asked "have the other thirteen members joined Momentum too?".

 

[ViolentPanda]

One can enlighten, or one can launch an 'ad hom' attack. The gentleman enlightens, the thug...

...pretends to be a gentleman.

 

[andysays]

You end them by making clear that we are a secular country, and that whilst people are entitled to practise religion in their own time, in respect of education the plan is to give every kid the best chance possible to learn, think, develop skills and mix with people other faiths and none, background and cultures.

Britain isn't a secular country.

I wish it was, but it isn't, and unless/until it is, I don't think the banning of religious schools is likely to happen.

 

[krtek a houby]

You end them by making clear that we are a secular country, and that whilst people are entitled to practise religion in their own time, in respect of education the plan is to give every kid the best chance possible to learn, think, develop skills and mix with people other faiths and none, background and cultures.

Ideally, yes. But what if some of the faith school parents balk at this and homeschool the child/children. You then get isolated kids not mixing with others and not being open to others opinions?

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Where I live, the local primary school is a Church of England school. But children of all/no faith backgrounds attend. Even though it's nominally attached to the church, it's not religious at all, apart from having a carol concert at christmas! It has an extremely good reputation, and feeds into the "better" state secondary school.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Ideally, yes. But what if some of the faith school parents balk at this and homeschool the child/children. You then get isolated kids not mixing with others and not being open to others opinions?

They are already isolated from other kids and cultures, in sme cases deliberately so.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Both are/were ultra-left groups, trying to push the Labour party leftwards. There is not, and never has been an appetite for ultra-left politics in the UK, and such groups harm the mainstream socialist cause.

A synopsis would have been handy, I don't have time to read up on every subject, life is too short.

You're embarrassing yourself. The fact that both Militant and Momentum accepted electoralism - accepted that the people will either vote for them or not - shows that they're not "ultra-left", and that you don't understand what ultra-leftism.
Broadly speaking, ultra-leftists are revolutionaries, not electoralists. Electoralists tend to be advocates of social democracy and - if we're fortunate - socialism.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ideally, yes. But what if some of the faith school parents balk at this and homeschool the child/children. You then get isolated kids not mixing with others and not being open to others opinions?

What if they do? Only a tiny proportion of parents have the capacity and willingness to homeschool.

Bottom line ought to be that state money should not be spent on religious education. Of any kind. Start there, and work from there.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Britain isn't a secular country.

I wish it was, but it isn't, and unless/until it is, I don't think the banning of religious schools is likely to happen.

I don't think it will either. But having attended a school like this I would never send my kid to one and I don't think anyone with progressive politics can support their seggregational nature.

 

[andysays]

I don't think it will either. But having attended a school like this I would never send my kid to one and I don't think anyone with progressive politics can support their seggregational nature.

I agree with what you're saying, but I don't think the banning of faith schools is likely, or that it's a big issue politically.

Out of interest, has Corbyn ever offered an opinion on either faith schools or becoming a secular state?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

A chap from our local Momentum group (Lambeth & Southwark) was saying how he'd been in Workers' Power for years. He got a bit mardy when I asked "have the other thirteen members joined Momentum too?".

Not so much a flood as a slight suspicion of dampness.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I agree with what you're saying, but I don't think the banning of faith schools is likely, or that it's a big issue politically.

Problem is, since Blair, there has been a considerable extension of faith schools in the state sector, and an emphasis on religion has grown in other schools where it was previously in the background. I think this is a big issue politically, and it is likely to become bigger - in many areas, parents have very little choice outside of faith schools.

 

[kabbes]

You don't like what I've posted; it doesn't fit your criteria so I should shut the fuck up. Gotcha.

What the fuck are you talking about? I don't even know what you posted. Neither do you. You posted "I knew a man". What the hell are we supposed to do with that information?

 

[cantsin]

Problem is, since Blair, there has been a considerable extension of faith schools in the state sector, and an emphasis on religion has grown in other schools where it was previously in the background. I think this is a big issue politically, and it is likely to become bigger - in many areas, parents have very little choice outside of faith schools.

especially so with expansion now guaranteed, and admission guidelines to be relaxed :

Theresa May to relax faith schools admissions rules - BBC News

 

[andysays]

Problem is, since Blair, there has been a considerable extension of faith schools in the state sector, and an emphasis on religion has grown in other schools where it was previously in the background. I think this is a big issue politically, and it is likely to become bigger - in many areas, parents have very little choice outside of faith schools.

I think rather than describing it as a big issue it might help if we distinguished between something being an important issue (to us personally, or to a bunch of people here) and a politically significant issue.

The immediately politically significant education issue ATM is grammar schools, and I haven't seen, for instance, anyone involving themselves in that debate also arguing that (the abolition of) faith schools is something which needs to happen. This is why I was asking if JC (and lets open it up to anyone else within the LP as well) having anything to say about faith schools.

From what I've seen, the abolition of faith schools is not a significant political issue within the context of this thread or current British political discourse, nor (IMO) are they likely to become one, unless you have something specific to demonstrate they are.

 

[butchersapron]

I think rather than describing it as a big issue it might help if we distinguished between something being an important issue (to us personally, or to a bunch of people here) and a politically significant issue.

The immediately politically significant education issue ATM is grammar schools, and I haven't seen, for instance, anyone involving themselves in that debate also arguing that (the abolition of) faith schools is something which needs to happen. This is why I was asking if JC (and lets open it up to anyone else within the LP as well) having anything to say about faith schools.

From what I've seen, the abolition of faith schools is not a significant political issue within the context of this thread or current British political discourse, nor (IMO) are they likely to become one, unless you have something specific to demonstrate they are.

Those distinctions are missing a further key one - that something can be having a socially damaging effect (through various forms of social-apartheid, covert transmission of privilege, cementing religious/cultural/racial/identity based ways of organising social institutions and ways of doing politics and so on) whilst not being politically significant in terms of voting behaviour - i.e not politically significant to a wide section of society. This, i think, is the case now, but i would add for the main parties this is actually a way in which they organise their support bases - they're perfectly happy with the social atomisation it relies on and produces, and the formal groupings and leaders they can then fall back on to legitmise their own lack of bigotry or prejudice.