Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[brogdale]

I'm almost tempted to say this is what a Labour right wing cabal looks like without Mandelson, Blair and Brown.

But it's not just the right, is it?

 

[DotCommunist]

I'm almost tempted to say this is what a Labour right wing cabal looks like without Mandelson, Blair and Brown.

don't forget cambell

 

[brogdale]

This is where they're at...

 

[Rob Ray]

It's also possible there's an underestimation going on of how the Blairites' resignations have affected their ability to access the media on demand. Bear in mind, for the media the key is landing Big Fish to talk about stuff. No-one cares about "former shadow backbencher" much beyond the actual resignation and their explanation of why they did it.

The key people left over are the ones who actually held or hold major positions of power - Blair, Mandie, McTernan, Miliband, Watson, Khan, and with the exception of Blair (wisely staying out given his dismal personal record last time) they've been anything but quiet. Meanwhile if you go on the Twitter page of Chuka Umunna it's a veritable cornucopia of retweeted anti-Corbyn articles and snide comments.

 

[Wilf]

But it's not just the right, is it?

No, I agree, I was just musing on 'their' lack of direction and organisational capacity. The emergence of New Labour came in very different circumstances, with regard to the preceding 2 decades of neo-liberalism, Thatcherism and events in the Labour Party itself. But it was a 'project' for those at the top at least. That level of capacity and strategic thinking doesn't seem to be present amongst the current lot.

 

[frogwoman]

oh yeh - my mate reckoned there are only 20 or 30 actual blairites in the PLP (as in right wingers/people who support blair) and the rest don't care about ideology but care more about competence and what they think will win elections, some of those include people with views closer to corbyn's. I reckon there's some truth to that - they don't seem to be united at all except around the idea of "anyone but corbyn" . the feeling I get is that some of them were plotting a coup for ages and the rest just jumped on the bandwagon, which means that they definitely aren't united ideologically at all.

 

[DotCommunist]

oh yeh - my mate reckoned there are only 20 or 30 actual blairites in the PLP (as in right wingers/people who support blair) and the rest don't care about ideology but care more about competence and what they think will win elections, some of those include people with views closer to corbyn's. I reckon there's some truth to that - they don't seem to be united at all except around the idea of "anyone but corbyn" . the feeling I get is that some of them were plotting a coup for ages and the rest just jumped on the bandwagon, which means that they definitely aren't united ideologically at all.

60k a year before you touch expenses or employ a rellie. Its a powerful bribe. I've been dong it with the tory party, trying to spot the naked spivs and then the ideolouges. There's a deal of overlap there though. Surely some of the ABC lot must be convinced that they are saving the soul of the party. Delusions.

 

[brogdale]

Harman's message to her CLP members is a fine example of saying absolutely nothing other than not Corbyn:-

I've always respected the right of members to choose who they vote for in our internal party elections for Leader. And I've never, in the past, felt the need to intervene to urge members in Camberwell and Peckham to vote for any particular candidate. But I'm writing to you today to urge you to vote for Owen Smith and not for Jeremy Corbyn because I feel it is fundamental for the prospect of a progressive future for our country.

I believe Owen Smith recognises what I believe to be the case. That it is our duty to protect people from the unfairness and the reactionary policies of the Tories. That it is only with a Labour government that we can do that and that only Labour will make the changes which challenge entrenched inequality, prejudice and discrimination.

The job of the leader of the party is to unite us and take us towards that. It is clear that Jeremy Corbyn cannot unite the party. The party has become deeply divided under his leadership. We have seen that both at national and at local level here in Camberwell and Peckham. A leader cannot blame others for division. The buck stops with the leader.

I believe with Owen Smith for Leader we can get on track to put our progressive principles into practice. I will be voting for him and I hope you will too.

​

 

[DotCommunist]

Harman's message to her CLP members is a fine example of saying absolutely nothing other than not Corbyn:-

​

'but the tories' is the old saw in there. Its up there with 'we will protect the NHS' as their favourite carrot and stick approaches. The lying shites

 

[brogdale]

'but the tories' is the old saw in there. Its up there with 'we will protect the NHS' as their favourite carrot and stick approaches. The lying shites

But, we can't possibly accuse her of only defining her politics by what she's against; look, she's in favour of...

the prospect of a progressive future for our country.

 

[frogwoman]

60k a year before you touch expenses or employ a rellie. Its a powerful bribe. I've been dong it with the tory party, trying to spot the naked spivs and then the ideolouges. There's a deal of overlap there though. Surely some of the ABC lot must be convinced that they are saving the soul of the party. Delusions.

I think some of them are terrified that under corbyn they won't win an election again and their own parliamentary ambitions will come to naught tbh.

when is the election? the 24th isn't it?

 

[Wilf]

In terms of defining who 'they' are the centre right(s) have a problem with old and new. So far their pitch is that they represent traditional Labour voters, abandoned by 'hard left' Corbynism - that's part of their claim to authenticity. But then the part of 'they' that is still Blairite needs to talk about 'newness' and dealing with the realities of 'global economy' (which, of course, meant breaking the institutions of social democracy and the welfare state in the actual Blairite project). Marrying the old and the new isn't just a linguistic problem for them, or even an ideological one. It's probably something that can't be married.

 

[Wilf]

But, we can't possibly accuse her of only defining her politics by what she's against; look, she's in favour of...

​

Words like inclusion have long become toxic, but progressive is also following the same trajectory.

 

[gosub]

It's also possible there's an underestimation going on of how the Blairites' resignations have affected their ability to access the media on demand. Bear in mind, for the media the key is landing Big Fish to talk about stuff. No-one cares about "former shadow backbencher" much beyond the actual resignation and their explanation of why they did it.

The key people left over are the ones who actually held or hold major positions of power - Blair, Mandie, McTernan, Miliband, Watson, Khan, and with the exception of Blair (wisely staying out given his dismal personal record last time) they've been anything but quiet. Meanwhile if you go on the Twitter page of Chuka Umunna it's a veritable cornucopia of retweeted anti-Corbyn articles and snide comments.

Yes and No. If the media ever wants to stoke Tory divisions over say Europe Clarke and Heseltine are still on speed dial

 

[DotCommunist]

I think some of them are terrified that under corbyn they won't win an election again and their own parliamentary ambitions will come to naught tbh.

when is the election? the 24th isn't it?

I'm not sure but I hope they get that bloke who looks like an extra from Alien Nation in to do the compering again. I've never seen such impressive liver spots. Either way its too long away. This farce will be going on for time. And when corbyn wins again it'll just get more meltdowny

 

[frogwoman]

I do think that corbyn probably wouldn't win a general election and would hit a wall in terms of his support and who hes likely to appeal to, so if winning elections is your thing I understand why you'd want to get rid of him, especially if you think about the sort of people most likely to turn out to vote. I think some of these guys are concerned not enough has been done in terms of winning over the people who voted tory the last time.

im not convinced that owen smith is gonna be that person though, since so much of his career is just a succession of gaffe's from start to finish. I read a couple of articles saying they want him as an interim leader and then get a new, "better" leader for 2020 - but I just cant see it, surely that would make things even worse for Labour.

 

[frogwoman]

surely if it would just make it worse if Smith becomes leader now, and then in 2018 or so he resigns and goes umm "er actually..."

 

[Wilf]

I was, without much enthusiasm, about to track down transcripts of speeches by Smith and even Aaaargh, to have look at whether words like modernise and inclusion were still there. Instead, I came upon this headline: 'Owen Smith: the David Brent of Britsh Politics'.
Owen Smith: The David Brent of politics

Edit: 'fairness', 'aspiration' and 'investment' were all in play it seems. The Blairite bingocard still lives.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I do think that corbyn probably wouldn't win a general election and would hit a wall in terms of his support and who hes likely to appeal to, so if winning elections is your thing I understand why you'd want to get rid of him, especially if you think about the sort of people most likely to turn out to vote..

But this goes back to the basic contradiction at the heart of the PLP. They say Corbyn can't win, and cite his inability to rally them, the PLP, as the reason. They've stabbed him, and are now complaining that you can't have someone with a knife in his back as leader.

How's about they all get behind him and build a broad left alliance? If winning elections is your thing, that's the way to do it.

 

[Wilf]

I was, without much enthusiasm, about to track down transcripts of speeches by Smith and even Aaaargh, to have look at whether words like modernise and inclusion were still there. Instead, I came upon this headline: 'Owen Smith: the David Brent of Britsh Politics'.
Owen Smith: The David Brent of politics

Edit: 'fairness', 'aspiration' and 'investment' were all in play it seems. The Blairite bingocard still lives.

Looks like Smith is the Hazel Blears for the new century.

 

[brogdale]

But this goes back to the basic contradiction at the heart of the PLP. They say Corbyn can't win, and cite his inability to rally them, the PLP, as the reason. They've stabbed him, and are now complaining that you can't have someone with a knife in his back as leader.

How's about they all get behind him and build a broad left alliance? If winning elections is your thing, that's the way to do it.

But Labourism is as much about what it prevents as what it can achieve.

 

[frogwoman]

But this goes back to the basic contradiction at the heart of the PLP. They say Corbyn can't win, and cite his inability to rally them, the PLP, as the reason. They've stabbed him, and are now complaining that you can't have someone with a knife in his back as leader.

How's about they all get behind him and build a broad left alliance? If winning elections is your thing, that's the way to do it.

because broad left alliances have worked so well electorally speaking in the past

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But Labourism is as much about what it prevents as what it can achieve.

Not sure about that, but, accepting that there may not be a particularly coherent 'they', there certainly appear to be those in the PLP who would rather a Corbyn-led Labour party lose the next election than win it. I'd turn this on its head rather - the anti-Corbyn types are making a move that will ensure Labour loses the next election because they would rather that than a Corbyn govt.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

because broad left alliances have worked so well electorally speaking in the past

Isn't that what the Labour party was from the 40s to the 70s?

 

[butchersapron]

But this goes back to the basic contradiction at the heart of the PLP. They say Corbyn can't win, and cite his inability to rally them, the PLP, as the reason. They've stabbed him, and are now complaining that you can't have someone with a knife in his back as leader.

How's about they all get behind him and build a broad left alliance? If winning elections is your thing, that's the way to do it.

How's that going to work now then?

 

[frogwoman]

I was, without much enthusiasm, about to track down transcripts of speeches by Smith and even Aaaargh, to have look at whether words like modernise and inclusion were still there. Instead, I came upon this headline: 'Owen Smith: the David Brent of Britsh Politics'.
Owen Smith: The David Brent of politics

Edit: 'fairness', 'aspiration' and 'investment' were all in play it seems. The Blairite bingocard still lives.

that does sound terrible lol

A lacklustre speech which lacked coherence or detail delivered with all the charisma of a regional bank manager giving a presentation to an uninterested workforce was combined with the honesty and integrity of an estate agent.

this is just ... this is just scathing

 

[littlebabyjesus]

How's that going to work now then?

Now? Well it can't work now. It's being sabotaged. I don't see a bright future atm because there are those who seem determined that Corbyn must fail at any cost.

 

[inva]

I was, without much enthusiasm, about to track down transcripts of speeches by Smith and even Aaaargh, to have look at whether words like modernise and inclusion were still there. Instead, I came upon this headline: 'Owen Smith: the David Brent of Britsh Politics'.
Owen Smith: The David Brent of politics

Edit: 'fairness', 'aspiration' and 'investment' were all in play it seems. The Blairite bingocard still lives.

tbf, from John McDonnell:

we lay the foundations of a new society that is radically fairer, more equal and more democratic, based upon a prosperous economy

But we have to also meet the aspirations of people

Investment is the key to shared prosperity now, and in the future

they all talk like that

 

[butchersapron]

There is nothing outside of the Labour Party to 'ally' with. They killed that shit off in the 20s. The slow death of the ILP is where that ends. The LP exists to crush stuff to the left of it. Even with Corbyn leading.

 

[frogwoman]

Isn't that what the Labour party was from the 40s to the 70s?

tusc, respect, socialist alliance ... i can understand why your average middle of the road progress type is anxious about that prospect lol