Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[strung out]

My take on the mural is that in making the comment he did, Corbyn is either grossly antisemitic or, as he argued, he didn't look at the content of the image. Given the rest of his career and involvement in wider campaigns against antisemitism, I'd be prepared to go with the 'didn't look properly' explanation.

Given the rest of his career and involvement in wider campaigns against antisemitism I’m amazed that it wasn’t absolutely blindingly obvious to him as soon as he saw the illuminati symbol and depiction of at least two Jewish bankers (apparently the other four are just your common or garden white banker), that the mural was decidedly dodgy.

This is a good article from someone in the CPB exploring the mural and placing it in the context of what Corbyn would/should have been aware of. Particularly struck by this paragraph:

In truth, the subterranean narratives around notions of the Illuminati, Freemasonry and bourgeois conspiracies cannot, in much popular imagination, be disentangled from deeply suspect discourses in which alien, Semitic and covert elites are the controlling forces in our lives.

Art, politics, anti-semitism and anti-Corbynism

Nick Wright discusses, art, anti-semitism, and anti-Corbynism. Labour is weathering a co-ordinated campaign which combines criticism of Corbyn's policies and persona with an intensified drive to brand any criticism of the murderous policies pursued by Israel's rulers with anti-semitism. I wa...

www.culturematters.org.uk

I don’t think it’s inconsistent to agree with Corbyn that accusations of antisemitism were exaggerated while also recognising that he had massive blind spots in recognising it amongst some of his fellow travellers.

 

[emanymton]

I know. I'm generally of the view that, in cases like this, I look to the motives and beliefs of the artist. If those are antisemitic, then it's safe to say the mural is. If not, then the mural at worst has dodgy iconography, but not racist in intent. I'm happy to be corrected.

Something can be racist without that being the intent. If someone says or shares something rascist but they are ignorant of the racist message or just don't see it in that caae, it is still racist regardless of their intent. Now In my opinion there is not necessarily anything wrong with that, what matters is the response when it is pointed out to them, we can all be ignorant of certain racist tropes and therefore just not see racism at times.

 

[emanymton]

This one?

View attachment 432668

Context matters, a giant illuminati symbol in a mural is a massive red flag, put the whole thing together and it looks dodgy as fuck.

 

[emanymton]

Ah ok apologies I read:

as him not digging his heels in to defend people when they're subjected to antisemitism.

No problem, I think we are saying something similar.

 

[Bingoman]

Is Corbyn in parliament to be sworn in as I not seen yet and he is second most senior MP

 

[Cerv]

Oh, really? Then explain why Corbyn has begun legal action against Farage for more or less the same thing.

Jeremy Corbyn to begin legal action against Nigel Farage

On his GB News show, Nigel Farage accused Mr Corbyn of subscribing to an antisemitic conspiracy theory.

www.bbc.co.uk

Says he was going to sue 4 months ago. Has he followed through with that?

It’s got to be awkward when they end up sat next to each other on the opposition benches, or in the HoC tea rooms.

 

[two sheds]

Context matters, a giant illuminati symbol in a mural is a massive red flag, put the whole thing together and it looks dodgy as fuck.

Still only looks like six blokes playing monopoly with a huge symbol representing a dollar bill in the background to me. Once it's pointed out then yes indeed,

 

[Silas Loom]

Is Corbyn in parliament to be sworn in as I not seen yet and he is second most senior MP

Blackcurrant harvesting season, and he’s probably promised jam to all those volunteers.

 

[emanymton]

Still only looks like six blokes playing monopoly with a huge symbol representing a dollar bill in the background to me. Once it's pointed out then yes indeed,

I've become rather sensitive to conspiracy theory shit and that picture stinks of it. And conspiracy shit is always anti-semtic adjacent at best.

 

[two sheds]

Says he was going to sue 4 months ago. Has he followed through with that?

It’s got to be awkward when they end up sat next to each other on the opposition benches, or in the HoC tea rooms.

I'm not sure he's fully paid up the legal bill from the case he was fighting that was settled but each liable for own legal bills.

 

[mojo pixy]

depiction of at least two Jewish bankers (apparently the other four are just your common or garden white banker)

So it literally is just the noses or what?

 

[Wilf]

I've become rather sensitive to conspiracy theory shit and that picture stinks of it. And conspiracy shit is always anti-semtic adjacent at best.

You could/should have a debate about habits of mind of the left of the Labour Party and beyond that failed to challenge conspiracism and anti-semitism. Maybe why perpetual opposition MPs like Corbyn did a bit of fellow travelling (stwc etc,). Not to ignore that, I've raised it myself on this thread and elsewhere. However I don't think that takes us anywhere near 'Corbyn is an antisemite' the accusation made a few pages back (and no, I realise you are not making that claim). And most of all, Stamer and the right of the party are not trying to re-instil healthy left wing attitudes and judgements around Israel/Palestine, they are happy to see the Palestinian people bombed into oblivion. Alongside that, they have used false accusations of anti-semitism to root out the last vestiges of social democracy in the party.

It's been a dishonest exercise, undertaken in the service of a deeply shit politics.

 

[Dogsauce]

So it literally is just the noses or what?

That type of hook-nosed caricature has a long antisemitic history, from Nazi-era cartoons to how Zelensky is drawn by Russian and Trumpist cartoonists. If you know this it’s really quite blatant.

 

[strung out]

So it literally is just the noses or what?

It’s Rothschild

 

[krtek a houby]

While we're on about caricatures..
Any ideas what this avatar is about? Is it just simply about fighting back against the bosses or something else?

It's been bothering for a while, given the poster has mentioned Israel often.

 

[Serge Forward]

While we're on about caricatures..
Any ideas what this avatar is about? Is it just simply about fighting back against the bosses or something else?

It's been bothering for a while, given the poster has mentioned Israel often.


View attachment 432686

It's a cigar smoking capitalist. Dunno whose avatar it is but it'd be unwise to start looking for anti-semitism in every image. That way leads to the kind of things like the UK politician (can't remember who - Rachel Reeves?) saying anti-capitalism is anti-semitic (an anti-semitic statement in itself).

 

[Dogsauce]

I’d say that nose is borderline dodgy, but overall not certain. I think the ‘conniving Jew’ tends to be portrayed by antisemites as skinny and rat-like rather than fat cat.

 

[krtek a houby]

It's a cigar smoking capitalist. Dunno whose avatar it is but it'd be unwise to start looking for anti-semitism in every image. That way leads to things like the UK politician (can't remember who - Rachel Reeves?) saying anti-capitalism is anti-semitic (an anti-semitic statement in itself).

Fair enough. Have my own doubts about the poster, in regards content-wise, but a picture is open to many interpretations.

 

[Serge Forward]

Fair enough. Have my own doubts about the poster, in regards content-wise, but a picture is open to many interpretations.

And if it turns out the poster is a raging anti-semite, I shall tip my hat to you.

 

[Silas Loom]

I note the curly hair and the bags under the reddened eyes, as well as the nose. Wouldn’t use it personally if I was googling in haste for a picture of a businessperson and that was what came up.

 

[Wilf]

It's a cigar smoking capitalist. Dunno whose avatar it is but it'd be unwise to start looking for anti-semitism in every image. That way leads to the kind of things like the UK politician (can't remember who - Rachel Reeves?) saying anti-capitalism is anti-semitic (an anti-semitic statement in itself).

Yep, fat cigar smoking capitalist is pretty much a stock image.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's a cigar smoking capitalist. Dunno whose avatar it is but it'd be unwise to start looking for anti-semitism in every image. That way leads to the kind of things like the UK politician (can't remember who - Rachel Reeves?) saying anti-capitalism is anti-semitic (an anti-semitic statement in itself).

Looks like a caricature of Denis healey. But they've fucked the eyebrows

 

[Pickman's model]

Got a message from dh from beyond the grave

 

[hitmouse]

A lot to catch up on in this thread! To start with the most recent, I'm pretty sure Nigel's avatar comes from the cover of a 1983 EP by the band Anthrax - not the yankee metal band, but an anarcho-punk band from Gravesend:

https://www.discogs.com/release/381824-Anthrax-Capitalism-Is-Cannibalism

IIRC I tried listening to them once, and they were a bit shit, but I don't think there's anything dodgy about them.

 

[Cid]

The idea that, other than that potential Farage thing, Corbyn's first step to legal action on Anti-semitism accusations would be to bring a very dubious case against a left-wing London based forum is completely fucking absurd. Let's at least be honest about that.

If we were strict about that kind of thing fine, but we do post reams of shit about people more likely to be libellous. I mean I imagine if I say 'oh look, pig fucker resigned' no-one's going to be confused as to who I'm talking about.

Not that I'm overly fussed, just sticking the ol' oar in.

 

[hitmouse]

On the mural thing, it's interesting cos it's so similar to many interactions that could - and do - happen here, and I think it's useful to be precise. There's loads of stuff that gets posted in the bandwidthz thread that might include, for instance, stuff targeting shitty politicians who are women or people of colour or both, and is generally well-intentioned but might go a bit too close to, or way over, the line, in terms of echoing sexist or racist tropes. (And there's often lots of room to disagree about where exactly the line is, when is commenting on a politician's outfit playing into the general hyper-scrutiny of women's appearances vs when is it just laughing at someone wearing a stupid outfit, when is it acceptable to call someone a cunt etc etc.) Anyway, if someone had posted a sexist meme about, I dunno, Theresa May it'd be reasonable to take them to task about it, and if people had done laughing or heart eyes reactions to it then I'd be unimpressed by them as well.
But if someone had done a laughing reaction to a sexist meme about Theresa May in 2017 or something, and then apologised when asked about it, and then someone or a gang of posters followed them around saying what a vile misogynist they were whenever anyone mentioned anything to do with this poster, and if asked about it either refused to say anything or went "remember them doing a laughing reaction to that meme in 2017?", I'd find myself feeling a lot of sympathy for that person.

 

[imposs1904]

I note the curly hair and the bags under the reddened eyes, as well as the nose. Wouldn’t use it personally if I was googling in haste for a picture of a businessperson and that was what came up.

That's wavy hair.

 

[Silas Loom]

That's wavy hair.

It’s curly hair that has been slicked back with the blood of the workers. Use the same stuff myself.

The drawing style looks as if it pre-dates the Gravesend anarcho-punk scene. Of the main character, that is, not of the mohican-wearing bloke at 11:00, who is unlikely to be the work of the same artist.

 

[klang]

If i was a caricaturist I'd steer well clear of using certain tropes, however subtle they me be, unless i wanted to allow for certain interpretation. A long nose is one of them.

 

[imposs1904]

I'm still insisting it's wavy.

If that image does in fact date from 1983. I'm guessing the illustrator was watching a lot of Dynasty at the time and modelled the hair on Blake Carrington.

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