Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[Humberto]

WELLLL?

 

[ska invita]

Oh yes, I'm sure he's held in a genuine degree of affection locally and I'd hate to see some Starmer-ite robot get in. I suppose I'm just refighting the 'why did Corbyn/Momentum fuck up and how did that fuck up lead use to where we are now' battle.

I find it hard to put my finger on as to why but I find the thought of lots of corbyn supporters flooding the streets of Holloway in this upcoming campaign embarrassing.... i think its to do with what you point to... i want him to win and he will need a bit of help... but.......

 

[two sheds]

Yeah, absolutely on the antisemitism, the role of the right in the party, they way all of that has prepared the way for the horrors of a coming starmer government. It's just on Corbyn's actual politics, I went to one of the early rallies in his campaign and it was 'welfare state, public sector, mild redistribution, better treatment of migrants and common decency'. All streets ahead of previous Labour leaders and a shining light amid decades of neoliberalism. However there was nothing there about the Labour's disengagement from the working class, the feeling that politicians have abandoned communities, no strategy to actually get out into real life and real communities. The stuff that was heavily in the mix on Brexit, which itself was a Labour omnishambles (starmer of course, but also Corbyn who didn't ... lead). Add in the Grand Old Duke of York thing with the hundreds of thousands of new members who, seemingly, just became members and weren't really used to organise or expand the party. Corbyn was faced with treachery all round from his MPs and, as you say, the Labour HQ. It's just I don't think he or Momentum had a real sense of how to build something in a world where the organic links of the working class and labour movement had broken down and politicians were widely distrusted.

Fair points all.

There was the attempt to make the party more democratic which has now been reversed, and I agree Corbyn should have shown more leadership - he made the mistake of trying to reach a consensus, and then trusting people who were ready to stick the knives in (either in the back or the front as we learned).

He made the same mistake Biden's making with Trump, really. The right of the party was shouting how resonable and persecuted they were and then showed how ruthless they actually are.

 

[skyscraper101]

If Corbyn stands, I'd prefer that he wins, in that he would be standing against a candidate representing something awful (
starmer's Labour, the shabby treatment of Corbyn, Abbot and several others, the weaponisation of anti-semitism and plenty of other things). Same time, I struggle to see much that is positive in a Corbyn victory. His period in power was one of inept strategy, no sense that he might link the Labour Party to communities in struggle or anything other than reheated social democracy. His victory would just be as a minor thorn in starmer's side and, for that matter, a failure to even think about breaking with Parliamentary politics.

He was certainly the most inept and humourless leader of the Labour Party in my lifetime, but I couldn’t argue that he didn’t put the hours in for his constituents. Maybe the country and Islington needs him to be a sort of Martin Bell type candidate. It’ll keep things interesting at least.

 

[two sheds]

He was certainly the most inept and humourless leader of the Labour Party in my lifetime

I don't remember that from hearing him speak I'll swear he smiled at least once or twice and even made ... jokes. You sure that wasn't just the media banging away at him?

I can't vouch for this account but it purportedly gives some of his stand-up routine (admittedly they're not as good as the write-up but you get the idea):

16 deadpan Jeremy Corbyn jokes that are hilarious when you imagine Jeremy telling them

@Corbynjokes is a genius Twitter account based on the premise that “Jeremy hasn’t heard or told a joke since 1964” and now he’s trying his hand at socialist stand-up. And it’s utterly WONDERFUL, comrade. Here’s 16 of the very best: * * * What’s red and doesn’t move? Me * * * A socialist lion […]

www.thepoke.com

Why did the pig cross the road?
To avoid David Cameron.

How many shadow ministers does it take to change a lightbulb?
I don’t know. The lightbulb tends to outlast them.

 

[two sheds]

This was sweet for example:



He came across to me as quite human and spontaneous - admittedly not in news interviews but then he was usually trying (often badly and clumsily I admit) to respond to accusations that he was an anti-semite.

 

[kebabking]

Gordon Brown is renowned for being warm, funny and engaging in real life - incredibly polite and considerate of very junior officials and randoms he met. Corbyn is probably the same.

 

[Wilf]

Not an answer is it? Benn was many things: an idiot wasn’t one of them.

Okay, serious answer: back in the day I would, roughly, have classed myself as a 'Bennite', though that was about being part of the Labour left and democratisation of the party. I always had reservations about his politics, at the level of coherence/theory, whilst thinking he was on the side of angels on the issues of the day. At the heart of it was the mantra he used to trot out verbatim in interviews about the diggers, the levellers, the Tolpuddle Martyrs, the Suffragettes and the rest. Then, the other bit of his brain had a Parliamentary cretinism to it (not an ideal word, I must admit, but hey, Marx and all that). It was an almost religious fervour about Parliamentary deomcracy and it's possibilities for socialism, which even when combined with 'pressure from below' was naive to say the least. Or more to the point, entirely at odds with some of the extra Parliamentary movements he lauded and he didn't seem to see or work through that contradiction. The other thing, probably to be expected with his background, was an at best 2 dimensional view of the working class. Some of the worst bits of Labourism, expecting workers to join unions and support Labour and having no real answers when that ceased to do the trick. I'd level that at others on the Labour left tbh. He was though quite sophisticated when it came to inheritance tax.

((long paragraph))

 

[The39thStep]

He was certainly the most inept and humourless leader of the Labour Party in my lifetime, but I couldn’t argue that he didn’t put the hours in for his constituents. Maybe the country and Islington needs him to be a sort of Martin Bell type candidate. It’ll keep things interesting at least.

Who in your view was the funniest leader of the Labour Party in your lifetime?

 

[belboid]

Who in your view was the funniest leader of the Labour Party in your lifetime?

View attachment twitsave.com_Fi7Xk4Mi-SxMrZuD.mp4

 

[two sheds]

And who can rival this outstanding slapstick performance

Neil Kinnock takes a tumble

Neil Kinnock's election as Labour leader is overshadowed by a fall on Brighton beach.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Begs the question: Do we want a funny leader of the Labour Party? It's not really high on my list of desirable qualities.

 

[two sheds]

I dunno - at least a sense of humour suggests some humanity which is why Starmer is such a breath of fresh ... ah

 

[Pickman's model]

Who in your view was the funniest leader of the Labour Party in your lifetime?

they've all been peculiar

 

[Wilf]

Who in your view was the funniest leader of the Labour Party in your lifetime?

A bit before my time, but Clement Attlee did a great song and dance routine with Max Wall.

 

[Karl Masks]

This was sweet for example:



He came across to me as quite human and spontaneous - admittedly not in news interviews but then he was usually trying (often badly and clumsily I admit) to respond to accusations that he was an anti-semite.

i mean, he just comes across as a nice guy. Like the photos of him hugging and embracing the grenfell survivors. Contrasted with Theresa May clutching her designer handbag, scowling while surrounded by cops.

 

[skyscraper101]

Who in your view was the funniest leader of the Labour Party in your lifetime?

It's not really about being 'funny' it's more about having a modicum of relatability which brings the electorate along with you. It's not entirely his fault, not everyone is born with charisma (see Brown, Miliband etc) but he seemed at times to be doing his utmost to turn off everyone outside of the cult of Corbyn, from voting Labour.

 

[Wilf]

i mean, he just comes across as a nice guy. Like the photos of him hugging and embracing the grenfell survivors. Contrasted with Theresa May clutching her designer handbag, scowling while surrounded by cops.

Yes, it's interesting really. Corbyn is a nice guy with genuine empathy. However that didn't really cut through and his personal ratings as potential PM were consistently awful from what I remember. Okay, there were some obvious things in play there - the media, the right wing shits in his own party not least. But still a disconnect. Maybe his (reasonably) honest way of answering questions wasn't a good fit for the shitty world of politics. A disconnected world where johnson's outright lies and bluster became the 'answer'.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Is relatability necessary for electoral success? Thatcher had precious little. I'm not sure Cameron was relatable, was he? Major? Not really. Heath? If you like yachts, I guess.

Seems it's quite possible to win elections without being particularly relatable.

 

[Karl Masks]

Yes, it's interesting really. Corbyn is a nice guy with genuine empathy. However that didn't really cut through and his personal ratings as potential PM were consistently awful from what I remember. Okay, there were some obvious things in play there - the media, the right wing shits in his own party not least. But still a disconnect. Maybe his (reasonably) honest way of answering questions wasn't a good fit for the shitty world of politics. A disconnected world where johnson's outright lies and bluster became the 'answer'.

Is he leadership material? What does that mean in today's ruthless media driven political sphere? He seems like someone who's good in his constituency and community, but not cut out for that awful world.

 

[Karl Masks]

Is relatability necessary for electoral success? Thatcher had precious little. I'm not sure Cameron was relatable, was he? Major? Not really. Heath? If you like yachts, I guess.

Seems it's quite possible to win elections without being particularly relatable.

being clearly on the left made him an easy target. he's unrepentant in his views, often to a fault, and yet not ruthless enough to deal with the backstabbers in a media climate that would come for him regardless of whether he purges peple. So you end up with the dazlling spectacle of Jess Philips slagging him off openly to camera in a joyride around the shires with Mogg, and Ian, now Lord, Austin telling people to vote Tory!

 

[tommers]

Is relatability necessary for electoral success? Thatcher had precious little. I'm not sure Cameron was relatable, was he? Major? Not really. Heath? If you like yachts, I guess.

Seems it's quite possible to win elections without being particularly relatable.

Cameron? He was totally relatable. They were the "party of the working people" at that stage. He pioneered the "rolling up your sleeves to mean business" thing that they all do now. Big society, getting stuff done etc etc.

 

[Wilf]

Is relatability necessary for electoral success? Thatcher had precious little. I'm not sure Cameron was relatable, was he? Major? Not really. Heath? If you like yachts, I guess.

Seems it's quite possible to win elections without being particularly relatable.

Maybe it's about a combination of respect and relatability. And also whether the personality of the leader and other dominant figures fit the moment. The period 2016 to 2019 was about growing frustration and the issues that led to Brexit hardening up as politicians failed to honour the result/do a deal. Labour's strategy was all about dithering and hoping the tories would fall apart. No clear line or obvious or principled stance (the starmer/corbyn nexus). Johnson by contrast... his whole life and persona were made for that moment. GET BREXIT DONE.

 

[Wilf]

Is he leadership material? What does that mean in today's ruthless media driven political sphere? He seems like someone who's good in his constituency and community, but not cut out for that awful world.

Yes, he'd be a good leader in a better kind of world/politics, but not this one.

 

[two sheds]

The one thing I didn't like with corbyn was a few times when he was asked a really awkward question and he refused to answer, often when there was a quite passable answer, leading to a dozen times the interviewer just repeating it.

 

[moochedit]

The one thing I didn't like with corbyn was a few times when he was asked a really awkward question and he refused to answer, often when there was a quite passable answer, leading to a dozen times the interviewer just repeating it.

That's true of most politicians though.

 

[skyscraper101]

That's true of most politicians though.

But he did it routinely, and moreover came across as irritated by it. Also, it didn't work. He just ended up with a press that turned on him.

 

[Wilf]

That's true of most politicians though.

True, but he didn't really have the (hideous) skills of a Blair or Johnson to turn the interview his way. That's probably both a good thing and, in his chosen profession, a bad thing.

Pedantic edit. Johnson didn't actually get a logical 'win' in interviews but had an overwhelming bluster where that didn't really matter. Trump style shit really.

 

[redsquirrel]

Call me Dave was more 'relatable' than Corbyn, really?

I mean I get that Corbyn turned a lot of people off but he also had loads of (youngish) people flocking to Woodhouse Moor at short notice to see him speak. I can't image Starmer pulling in the people.

 

[Wilf]

Call me Dave was more 'relatable' than Corbyn, really?

I mean I get that Corbyn turned a lot of people off but he also had loads of (youngish) people flocking to Woodhouse Moor at short notice to see him speak. I can't image Starmer pulling in the people.

Starmer is probably the most ruthless Labour leader ever, at least in terms of the party internally. The banality of evil