IWCA statement on BNP

[belboid]

yes, thats the one me n butch already referred to - http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/who+voted+bnp+and+why/3200557

http://www.channel4.com/news/media/2009/06/day08/yougovpoll_080609.pdf

 

[Streathamite]

Not sure I really get your point. Would it make any difference to the analysis in the article if it said 'Joe Bloggs' or 'John Smith' or 'Julie Brown' (or whoever) wrote it?

possibly, because neither messrs bloggs or smith, or ms brown, fucked up as big as Gilligan did over the BBc/Kelly/Hutton/sexed up dossier thing, and his questionable methods had already been noted in Beeb news. Plus, any journo who claims to have progressive views yet who earns his crust being used as an attack dog by DMG is open to question

 

[goosegrease]

Yet the feeling is widespread that white Britons get a raw deal. Seventy seven per cent of BNP voters think white people suffer unfair discrimination these days. But that is also the views of 40 per cent of the public as a whole."

That's the issue that anti facists find difficult to confront and win and It's not just those with genuine concerns about their access and entitlement to social housing, healthcare, education, social services ect who hold this opinion.
It is fair to say that multiculturalism has been forced on the white w/c for 40+ years against their will. The invitation of British citizens from Commonwealth countries during the post w.w2 years was never a direct one, it came from a capitalist government who were not acting in the best interests of either the white w.c in Britain or the immigrants they wished to attract.
Historically, the British working man has been told he was superior to the peoples of the British Empire and was sent to all corners of the globe with this very attitude as recently as WW2. This is the generation that has played a major role in bringing up the current generation.
Racism exists as it has allways suited the ruling class, they cant just irradicate it when it suits them by telling us to all be friends and tollerate each others differences. British facism is, in part an expression of this.
I think the only way to overcome this is to acknowlege this. Working class people of all racial and cultural backgrounds need much more of a say over how housing and services are distrubuted within their communities. All forms of state sponserd segrigation such as single faith schools should be opposed (in a way that takes sensibilities to race and faith into account) the employment policies of local businesses should be determined by local communities themselves and any moves to ghettoise ethnic minority communties within allready deprived areas should be opposed.

 

[Joe Reilly]

I mean that if you quote a tainted source the impact of the quote is diminished, particularly if you state that because it was him that said it, "it is simply not a matter of opinion". Who says something matters as much as what they say (partly why I'm unimpressed by anonymous articles, but that's by the bye). Surely, if your facts about voting patterns are as rock solid as you think they are, you could find someone with a less obvious axe to grind to quote?

His explanation as to why working class voters choose Bojo is his opinion. That they did is not. To distinguish between opinion and fact is what elections are for.

As Gilligan was proven correct about the Livingstone regime, how does this become associated with a 'tainted source'?
CLearly what u call someone with an axe to grind many more happily would regard as an example of good dogged investigative reportering.

But then again people who don't like the message often think of shooting the messenger.

 

[tbaldwin]

That's the issue that anti facists find difficult to confront and win and It's not just those with genuine concerns about their access and entitlement to social housing, healthcare, education, social services ect who hold this opinion.
It is fair to say that multiculturalism has been forced on the white w/c for 40+ years against their will. The invitation of British citizens from Commonwealth countries during the post w.w2 years was never a direct one, it came from a capitalist government who were not acting in the best interests of either the white w.c in Britain or the immigrants they wished to attract.
Historically, the British working man has been told he was superior to the peoples of the British Empire and was sent to all corners of the globe with this very attitude as recently as WW2. This is the generation that has played a major role in bringing up the current generation.
Racism exists as it has allways suited the ruling class, they cant just irradicate it when it suits them by telling us to all be friends and tollerate each others differences. British facism is, in part an expression of this.
I think the only way to overcome this is to acknowlege this. Working class people of all racial and cultural backgrounds need much more of a say over how housing and services are distrubuted within their communities. All forms of state sponserd segrigation such as single faith schools should be opposed (in a way that takes sensibilities to race and faith into account) the employment policies of local businesses should be determined by local communities themselves and any moves to ghettoise ethnic minority communties within allready deprived areas should be opposed.

Good post.

 

[newbie]

But then again people who don't like the message often think of shooting the messenger.

is that right? well shoot me all you like, all I'm saying is that quoting Gilligan in this context looks more like endorsement of trueblue Standard propaganda than anything else. Since you appear to be intent on showing that voting for Johnson was in the interests of the wwc constituency that concerns you, maybe that's the case. It muddies the waters a bit though, which is the point about choosing which commentators you endorse.

 

[The39thStep]

It wouldn't change the analysis, obviously, but it makes some difference to the reader whether it's written by one person as part of ongoing debate or is the result of drafting and redrafting by some sort of central committee handing down the party line. I don't think the anonymity is massively important, but I don't understand the reasoning behind it and would appreciate some sort of explanation of why the author doesn't put their name to it, as with most articles.

Since you asked, I thought the article itself was fairly unexceptional and didn't really say much that I haven't read before, but then I'm no great shakes at political analysis and the nuances often pass me by That's why I prefer reading debate to tracts, because eg the points made by fridge, and the reaction to them, illuminate more than I get out of a carefully crafted article.

oddball

 

[The39thStep]

The yougov thing that asked 32 00 people found that BNP voters (in their sample)

74% don’t feel they have enough money to live on properly, compared to a nationwide average of 52%.
49% do not feel safe going out in their area, compared with 29% nationally (and 22% for Labour).
75% do not feel their family will have the chance to prosper in the years ahead, compared with 52% nationally.
49% fear a family member will lose their job in the next year, compared with 40% nationally.
They also show less trust for a whole range of people than the average – judges, council officials, company directors, politicians, BBC reporters, police etc. The only groups of people BNP voters trust more than the average are journalists on mid-market (Express, Mail) and red-top tabloids.

Look like social issues, issues we can get out teeth into, to me.

From the conference I went to where this poll was discussed there was also the point made that BNP voters on the whole tend to be more pessimistic than the average voter. Which would be fine in dismissining them as paranoid or depressive but for the fact that this was before the recession and the MPs expenses scandal .

 

[goosegrease]

From the conference I went to where this poll was discussed there was also the point made that BNP voters on the whole tend to be more pessimistic than the average voter. Which would be fine in dismissining them as paranoid or depressive but for the fact that this was before the recession and the MPs expenses scandal .

Folks don't vote BNP because they are contented. What makes a person paranoid and depressive? The society they live in perhaps, to dismiss anyone for those reasons would kind of be missing the point if you want to change society.

 

[Joe Reilly]

possibly, because neither messrs bloggs or smith, or ms brown, fucked up as big as Gilligan did over the BBc/Kelly/Hutton/sexed up dossier thing, and his questionable methods had already been noted in Beeb news. Plus, any journo who claims to have progressive views yet who earns his crust being used as an attack dog by DMG is open to question

Your forgetting here that Gilliigan was both essentially correct about the sexed up dossier and in addition was well to the left of both the BBC and New Labour on the related issues. 'Attack dog'? So you think that Red Ken's dodgy mates should have been allowed to plunder the public purse indefinitely. Fuck that.

 

[Joe Reilly]

is that right? well shoot me all you like, all I'm saying is that quoting Gilligan in this context looks more like endorsement of trueblue Standard propaganda than anything else. Since you appear to be intent on showing that voting for Johnson was in the interests of the wwc constituency that concerns you, maybe that's the case. It muddies the waters a bit though, which is the point about choosing which commentators you endorse.

You are the one complaining about the messenger. As for the remark that i thought voting for Johnson was 'in the interests of the wc' - well even more daft isn't it?

 

[newbie]

I would have presumed it a bit daft, yes, but it is the corner you seem to be painting yourself into, with your clear antipathy towards Livingstone & Jasper and your approval of the key journalist that did so much to win the election for the champion of free enterprise.

 

[The39thStep]

Folks don't vote BNP because they are contented. What makes a person paranoid and depressive? The society they live in perhaps, to dismiss anyone for those reasons would kind of be missing the point if you want to change society.

Not sure that anyone could find evidence that I have dismissed anyone in my post at all. What I was implying was that subsequent events will have reinforced that pessimism about the state of the country. Add in their peak oil theory, their old guard party rhetoric, the supposed meltdown that cultural mixing has with the recession, public expenditure cuts and the potential for race rather than class to be the area of conflict and their pessimism may not only prove to be correct but widely shared.

 

[smokedout]

His explanation as to why working class voters choose Bojo is his opinion. That they did is not. To distinguish between opinion and fact is what elections are for.

actually if you look at the demographics most working class voters voted for ken

boris was largely elected by the home counties

 

[goosegrease]

Not sure that anyone could find evidence that I have dismissed anyone in my post at all. What I was implying was that subsequent events will have reinforced that pessimism about the state of the country. Add in their peak oil theory, their old guard party rhetoric, the supposed meltdown that cultural mixing has with the recession, public expenditure cuts and the potential for race rather than class to be the area of conflict and their pessimism may not only prove to be correct but widely shared.

I see your point now, took the fine in dismissing comment wrong.
This pessimism, I would say is widely shared. The downturn no doubt is bringing underlying racial tensions to serface, it's also bringing working class peoples sense of injustice to the serface too.
The BNP seem to be playing on both and attracting labour's traditional white wc supporters in doing this. Look at some of their slogans "Another person like you voting BNP" "Speaking for the silent majority", on their web site they describe the main parties as "Liars, buggers and thieves". It's a mixture of race and class that they are playing on. Creating the impression that the rich and powerful are shafting them and need to be stood up to by the ordinary (white) person.
Interestingly, in the run up to the recent elections I came across three ex steel workers in a very traditional working class pub who were all once active within their local Labour parties and now are every bit as enthusiastic about the BNP.

 

[Joe Reilly]

actually if you look at the demographics most working class voters voted for ken

boris was largely elected by the home counties

Don't be an idiot. That is not the home counties. And you can't tell by borough. It is ward by ward breakdown that reveals the truer picture.

 

[smokedout]

fair enough, they arent the home counties, i just kinda think of them as the home counties

heres a borough by borough analysis

and a ward by ward

neither of which suggests that the working class voted en masse for boris

 

[Streathamite]

Your forgetting here that Gilliigan was both essentially correct about the sexed up dossier and in addition was well to the left of both the BBC and New Labour on the related issues. 'Attack dog'? So you think that Red Ken's dodgy mates should have been allowed to plunder the public purse indefinitely. Fuck that.

not disputing any of that, people have been telling Ken ('Red'? in what way?) that jasper was dodgy for years.
However, what is true is that he a) wrote anonymously to an MP to prod the story along (BIG no-no) b) jeopardised the secrecy of a source (Kelly - as big a no-no as you can get c) manipulated some details to make it fit (as Peter Kosminsky later showed in the government Inspector and d) this alleged lefty attacked ken on just about every ground he could find, regardless of evidence.
FWIW, NO charges have been pressed on Jasper, and ALL inquiries have cleared him.
None of this exonerates the Govt over Iraq, or the flaws of Livingstone's mayoralty. It simply suggests gilligan is far from pristine - which happened to be the consensus of his BBC News ex-colleagues

 

[Joe Reilly]

fair enough, they arent the home counties, i just kinda think of them as the home counties

heres a borough by borough analysis

and a ward by ward

neither of which suggests that the working class voted en masse for boris

This is getting a little silly. How you can tell the social makeup of a ward by a map such as this?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

fair enough, they arent the home counties, i just kinda think of them as the home counties

heres a borough by borough analysis

That map is clearly an argument for the partition of London. The blue areas should be renamed dumbfuckastan.

 

[newbie]

it's interesting though.

In the article this thread is about Gilligan is quoted as saying "Though you’d never know it from the Ken GLA, the white working class remains the largest single group in the city - something of which it reminded us on election day, by voting almost as one for Boris. He won two-thirds of the wards in Barking and Dagenham, truly astonishing for a Tory." The map shows B&D coloured red. So I downloaded the results spreadsheet and looked it up. What he didn't tell us was that Livingstone polled 1,000 more votes in B&D than Johnson. Not a huge amount, and he only won 6 of 17 wards (plus the postal vote) so what Gilligan said was true, but rather partial, don't you think?

The fact BJ "won two-thirds of the wards in Barking and Dagenham"
the spin the wwc voted "almost as one for Boris".

almost as one?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Gilligan is a disingenuous tory cunt - you'd have to be off your tits to use him as an authority on anything what-so-fucking-ever. I saw him explicitly say on question time extra that he was backing Boris Johnson.

 

[smokedout]

This is getting a little silly. How you can tell the social makeup of a ward by a map such as this?

do you live in london?

its fairly obvious to anyone who actually does that the working class areas of london, ie lambeth, hackney, barking, stepney, brent, newham, walthamstow, tottenham etc etc all universally voted for ken

and that the rich areas, ie kensington, westminster, city of london and the outer boroughs, many of which are in the home counties and do not have large working class populations voted for boris

do you want me to dig out economic stats, or are you prepared to accept that on average people in richmond have a lot more money than those in newham

 

[newbie]

that might not be true for B&D though.

 

[brasicritique]

All to easy to just cateegorise them as 'racists' or 'pissed off labour voters' and fail to see the whole picture

unfortunately this is the way things look like they are heading

 

[brasicritique]

BTW This idea that kens vote was working class is a joke

 

[smokedout]

The fact BJ "won two-thirds of the wards in Barking and Dagenham"
the spin the wwc voted "almost as one for Boris".

almost as one?

also interesting, the wards where boris did very well in B&D were eastbrook, longbridge and whalebone - according to B&D council:

Eastbrook has one of lowest number of Working Age Benefit claimants in the borough just above Longbridge and Whalebone Ward. The Rate of benefit claims has been very constant since 2002. The current rate shows 15.5% of Eastbrook wards Working Age Population is claiming benefit. Current Unemployment Rates for the ward are lower that the borough average, with average household income being one of the highest in the borough.

the idea that the working class voted for boris is nonsense

 

[smokedout]

BTW This idea that kens vote was working class is a joke

well the stats dont bear that out at all

from the spreadsheet newbie posted ken got almost double the vote of boris in both newham and tower hamlets, which i believe to be the most economically deprived boroughs in london

doesnt stop me thinking ken is a cunt, but its all there and pretty unarguable, working class areas voted for ken, posh areas voted for boris

 

[newbie]

little bit of polite debate reveals all sorts of things about political tract shocka

 

[Sue]

The article says this is true for the white working class. Unless you take into account the ethnic makeup of each area, the pictures above don't really mean much.