It's A Sin - CH4 - Russel T Davies Starts Friday 22/1/21

[Puddy_Tat]

but the majority of the London scene was made up of a network of pubs large and small, most in the shittiest run down neighbourhoods, boarded up windows looking like Derelict dumps. Yet open the door and a bright loud glitzy world centred around a stage lit with mirror balls bright overdressed drag queens in all their glory ready to distract the audience from the horrors of the real world waiting outside those doors.

Yes - remember a few places like that when I was (briefly) back in London 1990/91 - think at that time it must have been more difficult to turn a pub in to flats, so the breweries would give places a chance as a gay pub. would put the 'fountain' on deptford broadway (didn't really care for it), the 'roundhouse' in north woolwich (was there for the wake that just happened the night freddie mercury died) and (in the later 90s) the 'roebuck' in lewisham in that category (think it was in there where some bloke started a conversation with 'don't i know you from belmarsh?')

There Was a clone scene but that tended to be concentrated in a few cruisy men only bars by the early 90’s

yes - i don't really remember it in a big way - tend to associate the clone look with the leather scene (which mainly had its own venues in London) which has never really been my thing (quite apart from anything else, i'm never that keen when a sub-culture becomes a uniform in its own right.)

Interesting - I came out in early 1991, and was living in Manchester, and to be honest I never really discovered a genuine gay community. Just a fairly shallow, unfriendly drinking scene that didn't feel like a place I much wanted to be at all (perhaps coloured also by some experiences with predatory older men). I'm sure it was there, it just never felt there for me, and the fact I didn't ever really experience that sense of community is something I've always regretted.

I think the idea of there being a single, all-encompassing 'gay community' or 'LGB community' or 'LGBTQ+ community' is a bit over-estimated in the 'outside world' and the reality can come as a bit of a disappointment on coming out.

I've also had to try and explain this to well meaning but fairly clueless people from the local health authority when trying to justify funding for a 'switchboard' type thing, as they have blithely assumed that 'we' all know each other and socialise together and swap quiche recipes and so on.

Again, it's one of those things where everyone's experiences will be subtly different. There are / were people out there whose main interest was shagging and have / had absolutely no desire to identify with or be part of any wider community (including the ones that would make a big thing of being 'non scene'), there are / were others (more on the lefty / activist end of things) that very much do. At the other end of the scale, I have met one or two guys who went through a phase of trying a bit too hard to fit in as part of a (well meaning but possibly slightly misguided) lefty political stance rather than sexual orientation - know of one who's a 'straight ally' now, another got married and cut off all contact...

I did visit Manchester a bit round 1990 (I was living in north staffordshire, and seriously considering a move to Manchester in search of work as my temporary job was coming to an end - which ended up not happening so drifted back to london) - it was after the initial wave of section 28 / HIV activism, but there was a gay community centre (can't remember now if it was L+G or what combination then) that did offer an alternative to the 'scene' (which can be based pretty much on boozing and shagging) and fairly sure there were one or two gay-friendly bookshop / cafes, but broadly think it's up to each individual just how involved to get.

 

[lazythursday]

Yes - remember a few places like that when I was (briefly) back in London 1990/91 - think at that time it must have been more difficult to turn a pub in to flats, so the breweries would give places a chance as a gay pub. would put the 'fountain' on deptford broadway (didn't really care for it), the 'roundhouse' in north woolwich (was there for the wake that just happened the night freddie mercury died) and (in the later 90s) the 'roebuck' in lewisham in that category (think it was in there where some bloke started a conversation with 'don't i know you from belmarsh?')



yes - i don't really remember it in a big way - tend to associate the clone look with the leather scene (which mainly had its own venues in London) which has never really been my thing (quite apart from anything else, i'm never that keen when a sub-culture becomes a uniform in its own right.)



I think the idea of there being a single, all-encompassing 'gay community' or 'LGB community' or 'LGBTQ+ community' is a bit over-estimated in the 'outside world' and the reality can come as a bit of a disappointment on coming out.

I've also had to try and explain this to well meaning but fairly clueless people from the local health authority when trying to justify funding for a 'switchboard' type thing, as they have blithely assumed that 'we' all know each other and socialise together and swap quiche recipes and so on.

Again, it's one of those things where everyone's experiences will be subtly different. There are / were people out there whose main interest was shagging and have / had absolutely no desire to identify with or be part of any wider community (including the ones that would make a big thing of being 'non scene'), there are / were others (more on the lefty / activist end of things) that very much do. At the other end of the scale, I have met one or two guys who went through a phase of trying a bit too hard to fit in as part of a (well meaning but possibly slightly misguided) lefty political stance rather than sexual orientation - know of one who's a 'straight ally' now, another got married and cut off all contact...

I did visit Manchester a bit round 1990 (I was living in north staffordshire, and seriously considering a move to Manchester in search of work as my temporary job was coming to an end - which ended up not happening so drifted back to london) - it was after the initial wave of section 28 / HIV activism, but there was a gay community centre (can't remember now if it was L+G or what combination then) that did offer an alternative to the 'scene' (which can be based pretty much on boozing and shagging) and fairly sure there were one or two gay-friendly bookshop / cafes, but broadly think it's up to each individual just how involved to get.

I really don't doubt that lots of people really got a lot out of the gay community in Manchester at that time - it's just more a personal reflection that I never somehow felt I fitted in anywhere somehow. I have some good memories of things like the big Liberation march in 1991, some good nights out here and there, brief iinvolvement with the second wave of the LGSM - but for me the notion of gay community has always felt pretty meaningless. Most of my friends have always been straight, I never really immersed myself in the gay community in the way many people do. And sometimes I regret that to some extent.

 

[han]

for me the notion of gay community has always felt pretty meaningless. Most of my friends have always been straight, I never really immersed myself in the gay community in the way many people do.

Interesting - and actually I think that's probably quite true for alot of gay people, ironically. I know that for me, my involvement in 'the gay community' has always been on the fringes. Queeruption/anti Pride commercialisation; Duckie and the RVT, for example. If I've ever stepped into 'mainstream' gay culture, on rare occasions, eg going to places like Candy Bar or more mainstream lesbian events, I've instantly felt like 'this is NOT my tribe'. And I've also come across some shockingly conservative and actually racist opinions in the 'mainstream' gay community. So generally I've avoided it. Like you, most of my friends are straight - fantastic allies, for sure. My queer friends are all people who feel like they're on the fringes of 'the gay community' , like me.

So yeah, I think there's no such thing as 'the gay community' just like there's no such thing as 'the Asian community'. We've just all got one thing in common, but we are many different tribes, with different political opinions, values, etc.

 

[campanula]

There was a really decent feminist/lesbian crossover in the 80s - I worked in 3 different women only organisations and really only socialised with other women for the longest time. In truth, the fragmentation of that fleeting community consensus occurred down straight class lines...as single parents in groups such as Gingerbread were sidelined by a very assertive, educated middle class who, to my utter dismay, actually reprised and enthusiastically mirrored the prevailing business tropes. A bitter, bitter experience was the fallout when lottery money started becoming available and suddenly, organisations such as the Women's Resource Centre, which had been shambolic, bottom-up with clear principles of egality, suddenly hived off the creche workers onto minimum wage, while a cohort of middle class women (unencumbered with kids) awarded themselves huge salaries and spurious professional titles ...and when I was told, by some fucking student, that I had 'been betrayed by my womb', I walked away in disgust.

 

[stethoscope]

Just popping by as I couldn't really not comment on It's A Sin.

What an emotional rollercoaster but I'm so pleased that Russell T Davies finally got to tell the story as he had mooted a few times over the years - and as he purposely kept much of this out of QaF which reflected a different, more positive and 'out and proud' time for LGBT lives.

I do agree with the lack of Lesbian characters as certainly friends of mine who were around at that time (I was still a kid in the early 80s and only knew a few people into the early 90s living with HIV), always make mention of the support and care that the Lesbian community provided. Perhaps it was conscious, perhaps it was likely that given how much ground and time is covered in just five episodes made it difficult to really develop some parts of the storyline.

Overall, I thought it was beautifully done and an important story that needed telling.

I had booked to go to the oversubscribed discussion with Lisa Power and RTD tomorrow. Lisa was really answering the phones at the Gay switchboard in this time (later L&G switchboard now lgbt switchboard) they didn't have hetrosexual volunteers (and still don't) Anyway much as I like Lisa, I've cancelled to leave space for those who really liked the series.

Hi FoD - hope you and yours are well in these times. Seems forever since we met at Manchester drinks - probably 4 years ago at least.

Lisa is lovely - her out of print 'No Bath But Bubbles' history of the GLF book is worth tracking down. Also in these times where Trans people are the whipping people of choice, she's a Lesbian who was at the forefront of British Gay liberation and is very much a Trans ally and vocal one.

There was a really decent feminist/lesbian crossover in the 80s - I worked in 3 different women only organisations and really only socialised with other women for the longest time. In truth, the fragmentation of that fleeting community consensus occurred down straight class lines...as single parents in groups such as Gingerbread were sidelined by a very assertive, educated middle class who, to my utter dismay, actually reprised and enthusiastically mirrored the prevailing business tropes. A bitter, bitter experience was the fallout when lottery money started becoming available and suddenly, organisations such as the Women's Resource Centre, which had been shambolic, bottom-up with clear principles of egality, suddenly hived off the creche workers onto minimum wage, while a cohort of middle class women (unencumbered with kids) awarded themselves huge salaries and spurious professional titles ...and when I was told, by some fucking student, that I had 'been betrayed by my womb', I walked away in disgust.

I had some very intense but productive discussions some years ago with a Rad Fem Lesbian separatist - certainly with views that have broken through to mainstream 'gender critical' movement last few years - although we disagreed in some areas, but not others, we always kept it polite and respectful. Interestingly, she had a major falling out at some point in her own political circles as a w/c Lesbian Rad Fem with what she saw increasingly as m/c (and sometimes straight) Rad Fem voices drowning the w/c and Lesbian ones out. We became quite friendly for a while, mainly because of our class and anti-capitalist perspective.

Certainly there is a sense, especially again with the recent division sown over Trans-issues, that perhaps a 'Gay community' nowadays simply isn't as united.

In some ways, this almost seems like when some victories are won over a number of years (and clearly not all are!), then once strong solidarity does break-down - the once united voices become more disparate - and that can be on sex/gender lines (not just LGB vs Trans, but Gay men vs Lesbian, and Bi people still can be viewed negatively by some Lesbian and Gay people), on class (middle class privilege over working class), generational (older LGBT people who may have comfortable, married, lives that don't appreciate younger causes, or fear them), and ultimately political persuasions - radical feminism, conservative LGBT people, economically left/right, etc.

However, I do remember early-mid noughties going out, that for a period I certainly experienced quite a close and mutually-respecting of each other community in the circles I travelled and between Lesbian women, Gay men, increasingly visible Bi, and Trans men and women also finding their voice. And around the time of both the Civil Partnership Act and Gender Recognition Act both enacted by a Labour government (after also finally repealing Section 28), a genuine (if shortlived?) sense of unity and that some long-fought battles were being won.

It's terribly sad, therefore, to see such hostilities play out now again in a 'history repeats itself'. That said, as I've repeatedly argued, so much of this has been blown out of all perspective through social media misinformation and where doubling-down seems preferable than backing down, there's lots of perpetrators involved for all manner of political and fringe reasons, different privileges playing out, some plain old ignorances and bigotries, and of course there are some reasonable differences/concerns too but which I believe are surmountable.

That said, the last little while I've still found enough of an 'LGBT community' that is once again coming together to not allow us to be divided, so that keeps me positive.

A few of my loose thoughts on it all. Anyway, til I pop in again sometime x

 

[Southlondon]

Interesting - and actually I think that's probably quite true for alot of gay people, ironically. I know that for me, my involvement in 'the gay community' has always been on the fringes. Queeruption/anti Pride commercialisation; Duckie and the RVT, for example. If I've ever stepped into 'mainstream' gay culture, on rare occasions, eg going to places like Candy Bar or more mainstream lesbian events, I've instantly felt like 'this is NOT my tribe'. And I've also come across some shockingly conservative and actually racist opinions in the 'mainstream' gay community. So generally I've avoided it. Like you, most of my friends are straight - fantastic allies, for sure. My queer friends are all people who feel like they're on the fringes of 'the gay community' , like me.

So yeah, I think there's no such thing as 'the gay community' just like there's no such thing as 'the Asian community'. We've just all got one thing in common, but we are many different tribes, with different political opinions, values, etc.

To be fair there was a lot more hate directed at gay people in the period it’s a sin covers, and no protection in law should an employer decide to sack you, or a landlord evict you because of your sexuality. The age of consent was still different for gay and straight men and laws like importuning were there exclusively to criminalise gay men. It was not as easy for a lot of people to come out to their friends and families in those days, and I think that’s why so many would head to gay pubs to escape the homophobia of society albeit it briefly. Add to that the immense stigma of AIDS and that only added to difficulties for gay people to integrate safely with other pub goers.
the reason for the closure of so many gay pubs has a lot to do with the fact that it is now far easier for gay and straight friends to socialise safely in ‘straight’ venues than it was then. The need for exclusively gay venues has diminished to some extent.
When the largest brewery in the country at the time bass decided to deliberately target the ‘gay market’ by opening Comptons after an expensive re-fit with no borded up windows and a gay couple to manage it, the pub quickly became their most profitable pub out of an estate of, I believe, 5,000 pubs. That was a watershed moment when the gay scene Broke out of the shadows and soho went full-on pink. and I think that was also around the time the effective HIV meds came along and gay pride went from a free community event that made political demands and raised much needed funds for HIV charities, to a marketing opportunity for multinationals and brisk trade for any soho buisness hanging a rainbow flag out of the window.
The series is about a particular moment in gay history when AIDS was a terminal diagnosis that many young men had to face alone terrified, shunned by family and friends. For many the local gay pub was a sanctuary. The one place you could be yourself, and at that time it was the gay scene. If you went into the RVT in those days on a Saturday night it wasn’t the eclectic mix that is Duckies it was a 60 year old dragqueen performing to a full house of gay/lesbian/straight customers on stage and as you left the bucket shakers were there collecting for the food chain an HIV charity to provide hot dinners for those too ill to cook, rubber stuffers ensuring guys had condoms for their shag that night and On Fridays it was a strictly women only night many of whom would again be collecting for our charities or talking about guys they were caring for. Of course it wasn’t in any way shape or form perfect but for a lot of gay people it’s all they had and without a shadow of doubt it was the generally the gay pub that formed the centre of the community such as it was. And from what I remember the depiction of the 1980’s gay pub and community is pretty damn accurate.

 

[oryx]

Saw the first one tonight and thought it was really good.

The characters are my age and it brought back both good and bad memories of the 80s - the music and parties, but also the prejudice and the forced secrecy, and the fear of the completely unknown in the early days of HIV/AIDS.

Spoiler

I found Henry's hospitalisation/isolation and death really moving

 

[Orang Utan]

Looking at it, I'm struck by how it's obviously not filmed in London - it took two episodes for me to realise it was set there. I think I assumed it was Manchester cos it looks more like it, but probs cos QAF was set there.

 

[rubbershoes]

Just finished this and found it very moving.

Spoiler: spoilerish

Keely Hawes' vicious reaction contrasted well with Colin's lovely mum earlier in the series. Not all parents are the same.

It showed how easy it was back then for families to exclude people's long term partners

 

[planetgeli]

It's a Sin: 'There is such a raw truth to it'

How well does the Russell T Davies drama capture the 1980s Aids crisis? Influential queer figures who lived through it and in its wake – including Owen Jones, Rev Richard Coles, Lisa Power and Marc Thompson – give their verdicts

www.theguardian.com

Some more discussion from those involved in the making, and those involved in the 80s...and some not quite born then but with interesting stuff to say.

 

[han]

Looking at it, I'm struck by how it's obviously not filmed in London - it took two episodes for me to realise it was set there. I think I assumed it was Manchester cos it looks more like it, but probs cos QAF was set there.

It's filmed in Manchester and Liverpool.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Hi FoD - hope you and yours are well in these times. Seems forever since we met at Manchester drinks - probably 4 years ago at least.

Lisa is lovely - her out of print 'No Bath But Bubbles' history of the GLF book is worth tracking down. Also in these times where Trans people are the whipping people of choice, she's a Lesbian who was at the forefront of British Gay liberation and is very much a Trans ally and vocal one.

Hi Steth! nice to hear from you.

I lent my copy of No bath but plenty of Bubbles (bough when it was first published)- can't recall who to, but I never got it back - cant find another copy for love nor money now and I'd love to read it again.
Lisa has always talked such common sense. Her contributions on the www.thelogbooks podcasts are great.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

an alternative way of looking at it...

 

[D'wards]

Just finished. I thought it was brilliant from start to finish

 

[ddraig]

It's A Sin and HIV in the 1980s: 'By 25, I'd lost 50 friends to Aids'

Four gay men reflect on Aids in the 80s and 90s in response to TV series It's A Sin.

www.bbc.co.uk

"By the time I was 25, I had lost 50 friends to Aids and I stopped counting at that point."
Mike Phillips, 53, was a young gay man in the 1980s and, like many others who have watched Russell T Davies' Channel 4 series It's a Sin, he has been reflecting on the HIV and Aids crisis it depicts.

The programme has shone a light on the misunderstandings and the mistreatment of many gay men at the time.
"I am still processing it now, those things that Russell writes about, there is truth in it," Mike said.

He was told he was HIV positive in 1991 and, at just 23, he saw it as a death sentence.

and

But Mike, who was alienated from his family, said his friends got him through and he could see parallels with some of the characters in It's A Sin.
"I had a lot of 'Jills' - Lindsey who came with me to get my HIV positive test result, we're still friends, she calls me little bro and I call her big sis. My friend Cath who came back from Cheltenham to support me, I call her my soul sis," he said.

 

[CNT36]

I'm avoiding this thread because I haven't finished the series but some of you may find this podcast interesting.

 

[Cloo]

Just finished it (I don't get much telly time to myself) - thought it was fantastic, so heartbreaking to be reminded of all those boys who never stood a chance against it, especially in a world determined not to care. Olly Alexander's performance was outstanding as well, I thought. It's also clearly brought to a younger generation the history and reality of HIV/AIDS and I think it's amazing how it's apparently contributed to a big rise in HIV testing - a fitting tribute to the friends Davies lost.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

it's amazing how it's apparently contributed to a big rise in HIV testing - a fitting tribute to the friends Davies lost.

i suppose i ought to test again sometime

since false names are allowed for that sort of thing, i always thought it was not right to use 'john smith' at a particular time so have always used 'john major' instead...

 

[stavros]

I've been avoiding this thread as I've been watching it as it's broadcast. As you'd expect with RTD, it was very well written, and the relatively small cast were superb.

Has he ever mused upon writing and or producing any films? Given his hit rate I'd be surprised if Hollywood hadn't made enquiries.

 

[Buddy Bradley]

Finally getting around to watching this, 3/5 so far. Poor Colin.

 

[Cerv]

best TV show of 2021 according to the Guardian's annual poll. which isn't a surprise really.

Russell T Davies: ‘I genuinely thought – who wants to watch a show about Aids?’

It’s a Sin has been voted the Guardian’s best TV show of the year. Russell T Davies reveals why it took him 30 years to write, who the real Colin is – and why he just can’t keep away from Doctor Who

www.theguardian.com

 

[Reno]

best TV show of 2021 according to the Guardian's annual poll. which isn't a surprise really.

Russell T Davies: ‘I genuinely thought – who wants to watch a show about Aids?’

It’s a Sin has been voted the Guardian’s best TV show of the year. Russell T Davies reveals why it took him 30 years to write, who the real Colin is – and why he just can’t keep away from Doctor Who

www.theguardian.com

I liked it, but it wasn't a patch on The White Lotus, which at least is #2 on the list.

 

[bellaozzydog]

Good interview with him in the guardian today

 

[belboid]

Good interview with him in the guardian today

the one posted two posts above?


A very worthy winner. Chock full of characters you cared about.

 

[kabbes]

A very worthy winner. Chock full of characters you cared about.

Funny, really. My very problem with it was exactly that it didn’t have a single character I gave a fig about. They were just all 2-D cut-out cliches that felt about as real as Dennis the Menace.

 

[belboid]

Yes, you said that before.

 

[kabbes]

Well, it’s good to be consistent, I suppose

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Strong iron fist speech here: