Is this another "WMD" episode?

[mikey mikey]

8den loses his shit when then facts don't figure.

g4yslf

2@

 

[8den]

No I'm just disinclined to argue with someone who's proclaiming to have a "open mind" when they're clearly parroting the Russian line.

Life is too fucking short to deal with that level of stupid.

 

[campanula]

OK, I don't mind being regarded as a thicko here but why is the US so utterly exercised by the threat of some Putin rampage...despite being thousands of miles away and totally encircled by NATO bases...while here, on the next continent, barely a single UK citizen is losing even a nanosecond of sleep over the threat of Russia...and ' Putin stooge' as an abusive epithet is as effective as a slap with a damp tissue. Apart from the general US cold war paranoia (which seems to cover anything from area 51 to a pinko commie plot to steal our guns)...just what is the political and social basis for this overwhelming fear of uncle Vlad. Surely not some 'hacking' and spying?
eta admittedly, my main interaction with USians is on various gardening forums...but even there, they are demented about Putinbots and so forth. Am I hiding away too much in the greenhouse? Are the reds under the beds about to arise (not referring to dahlias and begonias here either).

 

[inva]

Stop the War coalition is galvanised into action, calling a demo this eve. Not to do with dead children but to do with Trump's meddling, obvs.

wasn't the excuse as to why STWC wouldn't protest Russian intervention for example that they would only oppose actions of their own government?

 

[butchersapron]

wasn't the excuse as to why STWC wouldn't protest Russian intervention for example that they would only oppose actions of their own government?

Indeed - it's even on their blurb for the bristol demo today.

 

[inva]

Indeed - it's even on their blurb for the bristol demo today.

not that it isn't a wretched line anyway

 

[8den]

OK, I don't mind being regarded as a thicko here but why is the US so utterly exercised by the threat of some Putin rampage...despite being thousands of miles away and totally encircled by NATO bases...while here, on the next continent, barely a single UK citizen is losing even a nanosecond of sleep over the threat of Russia...and ' Putin stooge' as an abusive epithet is as effective as a slap with a damp tissue. Apart from the general US cold war paranoia (which seems to cover anything from area 51 to a pinko commie plot to steal our guns)...just what is the political and social basis for this overwhelming fear of uncle Vlad. Surely not some 'hacking' and spying?
eta admittedly, my main interaction with USians is on various gardening forums...but even there, they are demented about Putinbots and so forth. Am I hiding away too much in the greenhouse? Are the reds under the beds about to arise (not referring to dahlias and begonias here either).

Uncle Vlad has 7,000 nuclear warheads pointed at the US.

 

[camouflage]

OK, I don't mind being regarded as a thicko here but why is the US so utterly exercised by the threat of some Putin rampage...despite being thousands of miles away and totally encircled by NATO bases...while here, on the next continent, barely a single UK citizen is losing even a nanosecond of sleep over the threat of Russia...and ' Putin stooge' as an abusive epithet is as effective as a slap with a damp tissue. Apart from the general US cold war paranoia (which seems to cover anything from area 51 to a pinko commie plot to steal our guns)...just what is the political and social basis for this overwhelming fear of uncle Vlad. Surely not some 'hacking' and spying?
eta admittedly, my main interaction with USians is on various gardening forums...but even there, they are demented about Putinbots and so forth. Am I hiding away too much in the greenhouse? Are the reds under the beds about to arise (not referring to dahlias and begonias here either).

Same reason we don't have a three day week despite decades of productivity increases, same reason we need lots of jobs and economic stimulation and sustainable energy sources but are loading taxes on solar-power and not massively investing in green energy, same reason why nuclear power itself still insists on using spare nuke-ammo instead of moving over to the much cheaper and less dangerously bangy Thorium. Apparently we need massive enemies looming menacingly to make the incumbent system work, it's a many layered thing.

eta: yeah, this post doesn't really answer your question... I was just having a grumble in response to said question.

 

[bimble]

This is quite interesting, tracing the 'it was a hoax' idea as it moved across the internets over the last few days:
How the alt-right brought #SyriaHoax to America – DFRLab – Medium

 

[butchersapron]

It needs to note that al-masdar is not a news site. It's a blog pretending to be a kosher news service.

 

[agricola]

Uncle Vlad has 7,000 nuclear warheads pointed at the US.

... and yet ironically Russia has never been less of a threat to them; under the Soviets those 7,000 warheads would be reliably expected to have worked and under Yeltsin there was a likelyhood they would get lost, sold, filched etc. In Putin the Russians have a leader who has overseen the biggest eastward expansion in NATO's history, who has provided some stability over there and who has poured billions into the financial systems of the West, and yet he is obviously some terrifying amalgam of Hitler and Tony Hibbert who is poised to steal all our opportunities to make fools of ourselves in the Middle East who absolutely must be stopped by some combination of other people.

 

[butchersapron]

At least Hibbert had a try when he could.

 

[agricola]

At least Hibbert had a try when he could.

His time will come again.

 

[Trumped]

butcher bastard would ike us to forget and why?

Does this butcher person specialise in chopping up sentences and sticking them back together in random order and using them as weapons to torpedo any discussion. He then asks dumb leading questions and demands a response. Bitch please.

8den loses his shit when then facts don't figure.

It would appear that these folks are not very good at keeping their composure and "lose their shit" all too easily. Are they any of the ASSAD DID IT! brigade around that can properly conduct themselves without all the hysterical and emotional hyperbole? I'm not particularly good at debating, however I'd live to see butchersbitch and 10thdan have a fact based debate with someone like Ryan Dawson who appears to know his shit. Now that would be interesting. I'd pay to watch that.

 

[butchersapron]

Does this butcher person specialise in chopping up sentences and sticking them back together in random order and using them as weapons to torpedo any discussion. He then asks dumb leading questions and demands a response. Bitch please.


It would appear that these folks are not very good at keeping their composure and "lose their shit" all too easily. Are they any of the ASSAD DID IT! brigade around that can properly conduct themselves without all the hysterical and emotional hyperbole? I'm not particularly good at debating, however I'd live to see butchersbitch and 10thdan have a fact based debate with someone like Ryan Dawson who appears to know his shit. Now that would be interesting. I'd pay to watch that.

Are you going to reply to the question that i asked you earlier?

You're denying that the Assad regime has been barrel bombing civilians in Syria during the conflict resulting in the deaths of thousands of them? Let's get this clear.

 

[butchersapron]

Does this butcher person specialise in chopping up sentences and sticking them back together in random order and using them as weapons to torpedo any discussion. He then asks dumb leading questions and demands a response. Bitch please.


It would appear that these folks are not very good at keeping their composure and "lose their shit" all too easily. Are they any of the ASSAD DID IT! brigade around that can properly conduct themselves without all the hysterical and emotional hyperbole? I'm not particularly good at debating, however I'd live to see butchersbitch and 10thdan have a fact based debate with someone like Ryan Dawson who appears to know his shit. Now that would be interesting. I'd pay to watch that.

This is Ryan Dawson the holocaust denier.

That's you done.

His face covered by a Guy Fawkes mask, Dawson claims that the six million death toll for the Holocaust “comes from a religious prophecy; it has nothing to do with reality.” He calls the six million death toll and reports of gas chambers, “BS” and “Zionist propaganda,” and complains that the world exclusively focuses on the Jewish victims of World War II. In this May 2014 video, Dawson and his guest, Josh Blakeney (a 9/11 Truth activist and Canada correspondent for Iran’s state-run Press TV) , link “Holocaust skepticism” with 9/11 Truth and express outrage that anyone would regard them as conspiracy theories. Blakeney had a second interview with Dawson in May, this time to blame “Zionists” for the Ukraine crisis. (In Dawson’s defense, he doesn’t restrict himself to slanders against Jews. In a January, 2013 video, Dawson somehow turned from discussion of neocons, bankers and the Holocaust to discussion of Sandy Hook conspiracy theories, calling the father of one of the victims of the schoolhouse massacre “a dick (who) wants money for his dead kid”. )

 

[butchersapron]

A link for Trumped while s/he's still here this time.

 

[bimble]

Jesus. Now fuck off Trumped go back to the people you admire who 'know their shit'.

 

[butchersapron]

This Dawson is a mate of Eva Bartlett btw.

Didn't take much to unwrap this one did it?

 

[NoXion]

The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons are investigating. Will their judgement be good enough for you?

I would appreciate an answer to this question Trumped

 

[campanula]

Is Trumped denying Assad's hateful murder spree or mainly disputing the necessity of US intervention? Not really clear on this but it appears that an acceptance of Assad's regime must go hand in hand with (more) US (and UK) retaliation. Not being snarky or winding anyone up - genuinely seeking an answer to what would or should be an appropriate intervention (given the egregious abuses which have generally followed US adventures in the ME).

 

[butchersapron]

Is Trumped denying Assad's hateful murder spree or mainly disputing the necessity of US intervention? Not really clear on this but it appears that an acceptance of Assad's regime must go hand in hand with (more) US (and UK) retaliation. Not being snarky or winding anyone up - genuinely seeking an answer to what would or should be an appropriate intervention (given the egregious abuses which have generally followed US adventures in the ME).

He has said that he doesn't believe Assad is 'killing his own people' (ugh). Which means he doesn't think the barrel bombs and other attacks on civilians have happened. That's denial on a level with the holocaust denial of the person he has just recommended above. And it fatally undermines the lie that he has attempted to put about about as just being someone who wants 'none of the above'- i.e he opposes all attacks. He's a ideologically motivated poster who strongly supports the assad regime and all that it entails. (As far as these internet snails ever actually support anything that is).

The stuff about intervention, well who here has argued for it?

 

[campanula]

As far as I could see, it appeared that Trumped was arguing AGAINST intervention. Not suggesting anyone here might be arguing for it. I admit to being confused. Is Trumped a returning poster (after mentioning a 6 year history) as I took it on faith that he was a new member with a stance which was overtly and primarily opposed to US aggression.
I have no clue what might be meant by 'own' people - Syrians? Alawites?...but have no doubt that Assad is following in his father's murderous footsteps. The factionalism and many warring groups has left me quite confused, despite attempting to follow the many conflicting agendas...so apols for appearing vague.

 

[inva]

As far as I could see, it appeared that Trumped was arguing AGAINST intervention. Not suggesting anyone here might be arguing for it. I admit to being confused. Is Trumped a returning poster (after mentioning a 6 year history) as I took it on faith that he was a new member with a stance which was overtly and primarily opposed to US aggression.

You are (incoherently) repeating the same simplistic "he's killing his own people" narrative which I am not taking as read.

this is the bit

 

[butchersapron]

As far as I could see, it appeared that Trumped was arguing AGAINST intervention. Not suggesting anyone here might be arguing for it. I admit to being confused. Is Trumped a returning poster (after mentioning a 6 year history) as I took it on faith that he was a new member with a stance which was overtly and primarily opposed to US aggression.

6 years refers to the start of the syrian uprising. The US has intervened in one way or another during that whole period. As has many other states and interests. The people that trumped supports have been to the fore of this since the backend of 2015. They didn't say a word during the thousands of airstrikes that their side carried out and the thousands of civilians killed. Now a single strike on their side and they are wrapping themselves in the flag of peace. It's disgusting.

All of those sides have been more than happy to allows the assad regimes atrocities to go on for 6 years with no retaliation btw. So there is no driving imperative that turns recognition into intervention.

 

[camouflage]

... and yet ironically Russia has never been less of a threat to them; under the Soviets those 7,000 warheads would be reliably expected to have worked and under Yeltsin there was a likelyhood they would get lost, sold, filched etc. In Putin the Russians have a leader who has overseen the biggest eastward expansion in NATO's history, who has provided some stability over there and who has poured billions into the financial systems of the West, and yet he is obviously some terrifying amalgam of Hitler and Tony Hibbert who is poised to steal all our opportunities to make fools of ourselves in the Middle East who absolutely must be stopped by some combination of other people.

Tony Hibbert...

sigh, googles.

 

[ska invita]

Not sure what the Russian government have said at this point, except that they don't approve obvs. But we know the rebels have the ability to manufacture their own chemical weapons.

the Russian statement, linked to on page one said Yes a Syrian plane flew that mission but it blew up a depot which contained the sarin...it wasn't a chemical attack but the attack accidently triggered a sarin release.

read for yourself Syria 'chemical attack': What we know - BBC News

 

[butchersapron]

Every word in that post you've replied to is a lie.

 

[not-bono-ever]

can the kidology stop ? we understand how nerve agents are stored, delivered and work, you dont just hit a stockpile to release the stuff - this was 99.99999% impossible to be an accident

 

[CRI]

OK, I don't mind being regarded as a thicko here but why is the US so utterly exercised by the threat of some Putin rampage...despite being thousands of miles away and totally encircled by NATO bases...while here, on the next continent, barely a single UK citizen is losing even a nanosecond of sleep over the threat of Russia...and ' Putin stooge' as an abusive epithet is as effective as a slap with a damp tissue. Apart from the general US cold war paranoia (which seems to cover anything from area 51 to a pinko commie plot to steal our guns)...just what is the political and social basis for this overwhelming fear of uncle Vlad. Surely not some 'hacking' and spying?
eta admittedly, my main interaction with USians is on various gardening forums...but even there, they are demented about Putinbots and so forth. Am I hiding away too much in the greenhouse? Are the reds under the beds about to arise (not referring to dahlias and begonias here either).

If you asked this question say 15 years ago, I would say the fear and loathing of Russian people was a legacy of the cold war. The propaganda was pervasive during my childhood. It was based on the Soviet system reflecting the antithesis of American values and the society being "ungodly." Even after Glasnost, Americans were pretty slow to grasp the changes. After 9/11, Islam and Muslim majority nations took over as sworn enemies of America and the "American way." Some admired Putin's crackdown on Muslims in Chechnya and fundamentalist Christians got excited about the church becoming more influential in Russia. Within the past few years, conservative Americans, particularly those who backed Trump, became fans of Putin's "strong leadership," liked the return to "traditional values" (e.g. homophobia, reversing gender equality measures, etc.) and saw Russia as a beacon of Christian values now that the shackles of communism were gone, and a natural partner for the US. For that reason, it seems most Trump supporters weren't at all bothered about the prospect of Russian influence in the US elections.

I think those who are wary of the Russian leadership in the US now tend to be on the left of the political spectrum. Basically, they're concerned about most of the things those on the left admire - the homophobia, misogyny, racism, Islamaphobia, power of the church, human rights abuses and the kleptocratic leadership. They see these as undermining the prospects of a free, progressive democracy in Russia and the potential return of imperialism a threat to US allies.

Apart from those who supported Trump though, many Americans were upset by the prospect that an outside country tried to influence the outcome of a US election, and perhaps could have tipped the balance. I think many are still shocked that it could have happened, because if it's one thing, Americans have, or at least had, an unshakable believe in the security of their system of governance.