Is it left wing to tolerate crack dealers?
- Thread starter TeeJay
- Start date
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Not related directly to the thread, but this is the best site on crack I've ever come across.
Please read it and be in no doubt of the horrors of this drug.
http://www.crackreality.com
Please read it and be in no doubt of the horrors of this drug.
http://www.crackreality.com
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Let's try and keep the thread on-topic. It's an interesting thread and ought not to go spiralling off tangent.
bristol_citizen
Well-Known Member
This is pretty much spot-on. Having worked and lived in an inner-city area with open dealing and prostitution I have had police admit to me that the area was an informal tolerance zone.darren redparty said:
What's interesting is that the policy is entirely in the hands of the police, not the politicians who seem unable or unwilling to do anything whatsoever about policing.
Neither do the voluntary sector/regeneration gang that has appeared in the area. Since 1997 the area has received £50m from New Deal for Communities and a few million pounds from Neighbourhood Renewal and the Home Office's Community Cohesion Programme.
The area is awash with community safety officers, community safety partnerships and a community safety unit. A whole community safety industry in fact. All, we are assured, under the control of the community.
But strangely the blatant and destructive police tolerance policy goes on unacknowledged let alone challenged by this alliance of police, politicians and career liberals.
Before the left even starts talking about tolerance perhaps it first needs to take back major areas of public policy making from the cops?
Great, so we're all agreed then: vigilante justic is the way forward for Brixton! Where should we start? I suppose we'll need some uniforms first, anyone else got a black shirt stashed in their closet? And I suppose we can expect a tiny bit of resistance, so we should probably be armed too. Who's coming on patrol down Coldharbour Lane Saturday night? Don't all rush at once...
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
phildwyer,
Have you read the IWCA articles linked on post #27, page 2 of this thread? They explain better than I can some of the concerns working class people have about drug dealing and crime in general.
Have you read the IWCA articles linked on post #27, page 2 of this thread? They explain better than I can some of the concerns working class people have about drug dealing and crime in general.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
Of course its not left wing to tolerate crack dealers. What hopefully is left wing though, is an understanding that people's life chances are influenced by the material conditions they find themselves in and an acknowledgement of the social and economic conditions that lead people into problematic drug use and/or dealing. Just coming out with bullshit like "they're all parasitic scum" is idiotic and counterproductive. Undoubtedly some are parasitic scum. However, others are extremely damaged people trying to support their own habits.
To be honest, I find it extremely depressing when I see people on the left coming out with the same kind of knee-jerk reactionary bollocks that wouldn't look out of place in the pages of the Daily Mail.
To be honest, I find it extremely depressing when I see people on the left coming out with the same kind of knee-jerk reactionary bollocks that wouldn't look out of place in the pages of the Daily Mail.
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Blagsta said:
Top post, Blagsta.
Andy the Don
Wise men say only fools..
Communities tolerate drug dealers from within their own community, a report by Kings College, London.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4476600.stm
Quote from the report..
"The solution isn't simply a policing solution but you have to tackle the underlying deprivation.
"This is a complex of factors: 30 years ago there were no class A drug markets in deprived areas to speak of."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4476600.stm
Quote from the report..
"The solution isn't simply a policing solution but you have to tackle the underlying deprivation.
"This is a complex of factors: 30 years ago there were no class A drug markets in deprived areas to speak of."
1. The spurious “war on drugs,” with the attendant, media-fuelled outrage against “parasitic scum” dealers has been, is being, and will be used by property speculators and their allies in the press to drive the poor out of newly-desirable inner city neighborhoods like Brixton.
2. Blaming the dealers for the problem is like the USA blaming Colombia for its drugs problem. Attacking the dealers is like the USA “intervening” in Colombia with the drug war as an excuse.
3. No-one has yet explained to me what is so horrifically unbearable about having drug dealers living or working in your vicinity. If anything, they probably keep the neighborhoods safe, not wanting their customers to get robbed. it’s the *users* who commit the crime. Now *that’s* an idea, let’s have a really tough crackdown on drug *users.* Although something tells me that plan might not be so popular around here…
2. Blaming the dealers for the problem is like the USA blaming Colombia for its drugs problem. Attacking the dealers is like the USA “intervening” in Colombia with the drug war as an excuse.
3. No-one has yet explained to me what is so horrifically unbearable about having drug dealers living or working in your vicinity. If anything, they probably keep the neighborhoods safe, not wanting their customers to get robbed. it’s the *users* who commit the crime. Now *that’s* an idea, let’s have a really tough crackdown on drug *users.* Although something tells me that plan might not be so popular around here…
bristol_citizen
Well-Known Member
Er, robbery, abuse, assault, burglary maybe?phildwyer said:
editor
hiraethified
Maybe it's something to do with the increased likelihood of being mugged/robbed or randomly assaulted by their crackhead customers, having crack prostitutes using your doorway for sex with customers or having to step over dangerous used needles on the kids play area outside?phildwyer said:
There's only one street in London that I won't walk down at night and guess what - it's where the crack dealers operate!
knopf said:Watch yourself, tobes -- you're agreeing with anarchists all over the shop today.
When it comes to drugs I would not trust a local officer with information about dealers. Based on past experience they must walk around with their eyes shut or doing a Nelson touch and pocketing a big wedge.
The only time I have managed to get some serious law enforcement done is go out of the county to another law enforcement agency altogether. (Who trust the local uniformed plod when it comes to drugs as little as I do)
The following is a quote from:phildwyer said:
National Criminal Intelligence Service
UK Threat Assessment: The Threat from Serious and Organised Crime 2004/5 - 2005/6
Chapter 7 CRIMINAL POSSESSION AND USE OF FIREARMS
Link: http://www.ncis.co.uk/ukta.asp
Also:
Interesting to read chapter 3 as well.
As you need to download a .pdf document I hope noone minds if I paraphrase and quote the bits of it that relate to cocaine and also specifically to crack:
Its says there is an estimated 35 to 45 tonnes of cocaine imported per year, mostly coming from Colombia with bulk crossing the Atlantic in large multi-tonne shipments bound for Spain and Portugal. It says that secondary distribution from mainland Europe to the UK is organised primarily from Spain and the Netherlands via HGVs routed overland to the Channel and North Sea ports with Holland also playing a significant role both as "a point of entry into the EU for South American cocaine, arriving by sea and air, and as a distribution point for cocaine first landed in Spain or Portugal".
"The bulk of the secondary distribution from the Netherlands to the UK is organised by British criminals. The relationships between South American, Spanish, Dutch, British and other criminals appear increasingly fluid, with the different ethnic groups working together more closely. As a result, the ownership of cocaine as it transits Europe en-route to the UK is increasingly complex."
"At the wholesale level, cocaine distribution appears to be controlled mainly by British Caucasians and Colombians, although there is evidence of the
involvement of other groups. Many of the British Caucasian groups involved import and distribute other Class A and Class C drugs, and in some cases smuggled cigarettes. Cocaine powder is used mostly as a ‘recreational’ drug at ‘street-level’ (the point of sale to low-level dealers and users). A number of wholesale importers and distributors own or have some involvement with pubs and clubs, and use them as outlets."
...and more specifically to crack
As you need to download a .pdf document I hope noone minds if I paraphrase and quote the bits of it that relate to cocaine and also specifically to crack:
Its says there is an estimated 35 to 45 tonnes of cocaine imported per year, mostly coming from Colombia with bulk crossing the Atlantic in large multi-tonne shipments bound for Spain and Portugal. It says that secondary distribution from mainland Europe to the UK is organised primarily from Spain and the Netherlands via HGVs routed overland to the Channel and North Sea ports with Holland also playing a significant role both as "a point of entry into the EU for South American cocaine, arriving by sea and air, and as a distribution point for cocaine first landed in Spain or Portugal".
"The bulk of the secondary distribution from the Netherlands to the UK is organised by British criminals. The relationships between South American, Spanish, Dutch, British and other criminals appear increasingly fluid, with the different ethnic groups working together more closely. As a result, the ownership of cocaine as it transits Europe en-route to the UK is increasingly complex."
"At the wholesale level, cocaine distribution appears to be controlled mainly by British Caucasians and Colombians, although there is evidence of the
involvement of other groups. Many of the British Caucasian groups involved import and distribute other Class A and Class C drugs, and in some cases smuggled cigarettes. Cocaine powder is used mostly as a ‘recreational’ drug at ‘street-level’ (the point of sale to low-level dealers and users). A number of wholesale importers and distributors own or have some involvement with pubs and clubs, and use them as outlets."
...and more specifically to crack
http://www.ncis.co.uk/ukta.asp (see chapter 3) (nb need to download ,pdf document)
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Indeed. And then there's the obnoxious type of dealers who get shirty at members of the public who attempt to innocently walk through "their" territory on their way to somewhere else. The dealer in such cases has "decided" that that patch of street is only for the use of themselves and their customers - and woe betide the pedestrian who has the affront to try get to where they're going if it means stepping on "their" territory.editor said:
Drug dealers as protectors of the community? Do me a favour!
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
I think there's little point in comparing the US and UK experiences of drug-related crime and violence since the two societies are hugely different, not least the easy availability of firearms to everyone in the US.
I remember going to NY before Giuliani launched the Zero Tolerance approach and went, neighbourhood by neighbourhood, through NY using a technique that invovled communities through the punishment of any an all petty crime - vandalism, ticket avoidance on the Metro (which saw assualts and robberies fall dramatically), even littering and this led to communities feeling better about the physical locale - no broken windows on houses, no shit all over the streets - and this in turn led to a turnaround for many communities in both their own debilitating drug use and the dealers, which is why NY is a much safer place to be now then it was 15 years ago.
I remember going to NY before Giuliani launched the Zero Tolerance approach and went, neighbourhood by neighbourhood, through NY using a technique that invovled communities through the punishment of any an all petty crime - vandalism, ticket avoidance on the Metro (which saw assualts and robberies fall dramatically), even littering and this led to communities feeling better about the physical locale - no broken windows on houses, no shit all over the streets - and this in turn led to a turnaround for many communities in both their own debilitating drug use and the dealers, which is why NY is a much safer place to be now then it was 15 years ago.
bristol_citizen
Well-Known Member
I'm no fan of Giuliani or zero tolerance but he does show what can happen when a politician starts to set the agenda and force the cops to follow it.kyser_soze said:
Can anyone think of a similar example anywhere in the UK?
likesfish
You can't park here sir
maybe toby jug could invite some of the boys who ran action on drugs over to the mainland. could probably even get a lottery grant if they promise to put up some nice murals 
There's nothing life enhancing about crack houses and street dealers if the police won't deal with it whats exactly wrong with the community defending itself?
or though you could be subtle about walk into the local cop shop with a tame journalist and 50 applications for shotgun certificates
.
That I'd imagine would light a fire under the local coppers.
if being particularly evil invite the torygraph along as there running some sot of cull a burgular campign at worse you'd get the tory graph to spring for a decent lunch.
Clay pigeon shootings an established sport there must be a range near london
There's nothing life enhancing about crack houses and street dealers if the police won't deal with it whats exactly wrong with the community defending itself?
or though you could be subtle about walk into the local cop shop with a tame journalist and 50 applications for shotgun certificates
.That I'd imagine would light a fire under the local coppers.
if being particularly evil invite the torygraph along as there running some sot of cull a burgular campign at worse you'd get the tory graph to spring for a decent lunch.
Clay pigeon shootings an established sport there must be a range near london
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