Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
it's somewhere in the swp's "what we believe".TeeJay said:
Is it left wing to tolerate crack dealers?
- Thread starter TeeJay
- Start date
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Jesus, there's some shite being spouted on this thread...
First off, 'yuppies' and those 'middle class liberal wankers' who move into an area like Brixton do NOT like seeing street dealing wherever they go, not to mention the increased likelihood of mugging and robbery from their homes. To say that this is a group who will turn round and try and stop street dealing because it adds to the vibrancy' of an area is ridiculous - to start with encouraging crime does nothing to add value to the property they bought.
Second, and as Idaho said, the idea of trying to turn drug abuse and related crime into a class politics issue is ridiculous and doesn't reflect the reality that it's a social issue affecting all classes and environments, rural and urban.
First off, 'yuppies' and those 'middle class liberal wankers' who move into an area like Brixton do NOT like seeing street dealing wherever they go, not to mention the increased likelihood of mugging and robbery from their homes. To say that this is a group who will turn round and try and stop street dealing because it adds to the vibrancy' of an area is ridiculous - to start with encouraging crime does nothing to add value to the property they bought.
Second, and as Idaho said, the idea of trying to turn drug abuse and related crime into a class politics issue is ridiculous and doesn't reflect the reality that it's a social issue affecting all classes and environments, rural and urban.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Sadly, I have heard middle class tossers come out with exactly this sort of pro-dealer shite, I'm afraid. Usually the "trendier-than-thou" types who aren't too bothered about house prices (to their credit - but that's where that credit ends), but seem to take delight in social dysfunction as they see it as some kind of "wadical alternative lifestyle" or something.kyser_soze said:
It's patronising and insulting to the working class communities they live amongst who have to put up with all the problems that come with dealer-infestation, and who don't see it as some kind of culturally-enriching phenomenon.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Where exactly have you heard said things? I find it almost non-sensical that someone who has bought in an area expecting it's value to rise actually saying that they like street crime.
And just out of interest, how did you know they were middle class?
I'd really like to know who exactly these people are so I can go and twat them for saying such ridiculous things.
And just out of interest, how did you know they were middle class?
I'd really like to know who exactly these people are so I can go and twat them for saying such ridiculous things.
Consider the example of the Lower East Side of Manhattan, where I used to live. When I moved there, it was the most culturally active and politically radical neighborhood I had ever seen. It was a 50-50 mixture of poor Puerto Ricans and white Bohemians. The two groups got along very well, often organizing political action around common causes. The communist and anarchist meetings were packed with working-class immigrants--how often do you see that in the UK? The popular culture of the neighborhood was world-famous, it was the birthplace of the Beatnik and Punk movements, both Allen Ginsburg and Richard Hell were regularly seen on the streets and in the bars. The Nuorican Poets' Cafe brought Puerto Rican Spanglish to the world's attention. The only place I've ever found that is remotely comparable in its atmosphere is Brixton.
Now, there was one characteristic of the neighborhood that many of you apparently see as a problem. There were crack and heroin dealers on almost every block. Lots and lots of them: I would be approached ten times as I walked accross the road for a coffee. I never had a problem with any of them, and nor did anyone else I knew. I suppose their customers did bring street-crime with them, and you had to watch your back, but it wasn't the end of the world.
Anyway, by the early '90's there were campaigns to get the dealers out, just as some of you are proposing in Brixton. They weren't organized by the working-class, from whose ranks the dealers were drawn, and who generally saw the trade as a vital source of income for their community. They were organized by the advance guard of Yuppies, who had bought property there, but more expecially they were organized--behind the scenes, naturally--by property speculators. They would buy cheap, subsidize protests by "local" groups, and wait for the neighborhood to "improve."
Which, with the election of the fanatically authoritarian Rudy Giuliani as Mayor in 1992, it rapidly did. Within two years, there wasn't a single dealer to be found. They all went to prison, given ridiculously Draconian sentences. Of course, all the squats had to go as well--there was a brilliant punk squat on my block with a big A for anarchy sculpture of scrap metal that you'll remember if you visited the LES in the 80's, it was closed within days of Giuliani's election. Then all the best bars and cafes changed hands because they couldn't afford the new rent--as I write CBGB's looks like it is finally capitulating, imagine how different the world would be if there's been no CBGB's. They became bland, faceless places for Yuppies.
And those of you who think anti-dealer campaigns are a good plan for Brixton should guess what else happened. Housing rents rose. A *lot.* Suddenly the working-class people couldn't afford to live there any more. They dispersed to the outer boroughs, their communities destroyed. Then *middle* class people couldn't afford to live there any more. Today, you won't find a one-bedroom in the LES for under $3000. So the only people who live there are bankers and lawyers and doctors. It is now much like any other neighborhood in any other American city. The march of homogenization continues unchecked. I suppose that pretty soon everywhere will be like everywhere else: Brixton will be like Chelsea. But when that happens, I wonder how many of you will be living there.
Now, there was one characteristic of the neighborhood that many of you apparently see as a problem. There were crack and heroin dealers on almost every block. Lots and lots of them: I would be approached ten times as I walked accross the road for a coffee. I never had a problem with any of them, and nor did anyone else I knew. I suppose their customers did bring street-crime with them, and you had to watch your back, but it wasn't the end of the world.
Anyway, by the early '90's there were campaigns to get the dealers out, just as some of you are proposing in Brixton. They weren't organized by the working-class, from whose ranks the dealers were drawn, and who generally saw the trade as a vital source of income for their community. They were organized by the advance guard of Yuppies, who had bought property there, but more expecially they were organized--behind the scenes, naturally--by property speculators. They would buy cheap, subsidize protests by "local" groups, and wait for the neighborhood to "improve."
Which, with the election of the fanatically authoritarian Rudy Giuliani as Mayor in 1992, it rapidly did. Within two years, there wasn't a single dealer to be found. They all went to prison, given ridiculously Draconian sentences. Of course, all the squats had to go as well--there was a brilliant punk squat on my block with a big A for anarchy sculpture of scrap metal that you'll remember if you visited the LES in the 80's, it was closed within days of Giuliani's election. Then all the best bars and cafes changed hands because they couldn't afford the new rent--as I write CBGB's looks like it is finally capitulating, imagine how different the world would be if there's been no CBGB's. They became bland, faceless places for Yuppies.
And those of you who think anti-dealer campaigns are a good plan for Brixton should guess what else happened. Housing rents rose. A *lot.* Suddenly the working-class people couldn't afford to live there any more. They dispersed to the outer boroughs, their communities destroyed. Then *middle* class people couldn't afford to live there any more. Today, you won't find a one-bedroom in the LES for under $3000. So the only people who live there are bankers and lawyers and doctors. It is now much like any other neighborhood in any other American city. The march of homogenization continues unchecked. I suppose that pretty soon everywhere will be like everywhere else: Brixton will be like Chelsea. But when that happens, I wonder how many of you will be living there.
phildwyer said:
There is only one tiny problem with that contribution, the Lower East Side of Manhattan is not a council estate in Britain.
If you had ever been to a police/public liaison meeting where the police were harangued by the poor sods who live on a council estate blighted by dealers you might have a very different view.
A friend of mine lives next door to a dealer who is blighting an entire estate.
The police are doing fuck all, despite there being constant domestics at the dealers house and the police have to wade through drugs related rubbish on the landing and stair outside the dealers flat to get to the front door.
It has now got to the stage that there may well be a citizens eviction so the residents can have a Christmas in peace.
A good starting point might be trying to help addicts get off crack and smack, it'd starve the dealers of their market and help relieve a lot fo the social ills related to being addicted to an illegal drug.cathal marcs said:
I'd just appreciate it if people wouldn't be so kneejerk about it.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Why not have a two-pronged approach: help to get addicts off the drugs combined with efforts to get rid of the dealers themselves? I don't see why it has to be an "iether/or" dillemma.In Bloom said:
silentNate
1.618 xakep
If drugs were legalised there might be the funds for such treatment and then the dealers would move onto something-else...
kyser_soze said:
It tends to be the young who see themselves as just passing through who get off on living 'close to the Bad Men.' Often they are graduates who have decided to settle for a time in the city where they studied. When they've built up their careers and are having kids they'll leave it all behind-possibly selling their houses to younger people who are just like them in background and attitude. Because of this kind of turnover, the prices actually do continue to rise, despite the crime. How can you tell they're middle class? It isn't difficult: jobs, accent and manner are usually good indicators and, if you ever fall into conversation in the pub with such people, you might get to know a little of their backgrounds too.
To point out this very real social phenomenon is not to condemn the whole of the middle class, nor to ignore that there are people within it whose backgrounds could be described as working class.
silentNate
1.618 xakep
You have a strange idea of what drug dealers are like tobyjug, I bet most are about your age and don't deal to kids as that often attracts the attention of the police...tobyjug said:
You support prohibition even though it doesn't work- something you seem to admit yourself but offer no real solutions...
TeeJay said:
Well as Mr Blair is not left wing this may be relevant. It has been on TV news bulletins all day as well:-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...ml&sSheet=/portal/2005/12/12/ixportaltop.html
Tony Blair has pledged to make the lives of small-time drug dealers more difficult and unveiled new police powers to seize criminals assets.
PM wants lower threshold for asset seizure
The Prime Minister said he wanted to reach a situation where it was "really hard" for drug dealers to operate locally.
tobyjug said:
1. Its not in Britain, but the LES contains--or used to--several large "housing projects," which is the US equivalent of council estates.
2. Obviously the people who attend a liaison meeting with the police are going to be those who object vociferously to drug dealing. Most residents of the projects at least tacitly tolerated, and often openly supported, the dealers. They were after all *residents* of the projects themselves. Very few people in the projects supported Giuliani's crackdown, recognizing it correctly as a threat to *all* the working-class residents.
3. Form what you say here, it isn't at all clear how this dealer is "blighting an entire estate."
4. I find your implicit endorsement of vigilante justice a thousand times more frightening than the drug dealers.
snadge
metal alchemist
tobyjug said:
yes you are, on every thread that goes up with the word cannabis or drugs in the title, you've come out with this drivel about shooting people, you are are a fucking dangerous man and I'm glad the gun laws have been tightened to make it hard for people like you to get a fucking gun licence
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
How much of this tolerance and support for dealers was actually due to fear of the dealers and possible reprisals if they spoke out against them?phildwyer said:
Everyone publically supports a Dictator, is a good analogy.
darren redparty
a very bad man
what is this liberal 'no vigilante justice' shit?
basically following this line means leaving it to the police,who in our area are more than happy for the dealers to operate as they are 'contained' and not spreading out into the middle class areas- where a great deal of their business comes from.Also there seems to be a cuddly relationship between the dealers and local police as they provide the pigs with a reliable source of information.
those of us who have to endure this shite are offered the choice of collaborating with the authorities through neighbourhood watch type initiatives or the vigilantism that so many urbanites and the police abhore.
collective self defence to these parasitic scum is the only real alternative.
basically following this line means leaving it to the police,who in our area are more than happy for the dealers to operate as they are 'contained' and not spreading out into the middle class areas- where a great deal of their business comes from.Also there seems to be a cuddly relationship between the dealers and local police as they provide the pigs with a reliable source of information.
those of us who have to endure this shite are offered the choice of collaborating with the authorities through neighbourhood watch type initiatives or the vigilantism that so many urbanites and the police abhore.
collective self defence to these parasitic scum is the only real alternative.
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