poster342002 said:
I heard the IWCA demonstrated outside a pub that was notorious for dealing in crack and heroin.
The SWP tried to call them racist because it was mostly black dealers inside.
Is it left wing to tolerate crack dealers?
- Thread starter TeeJay
- Start date
I heard the IWCA demonstrated outside a pub that was notorious for dealing in crack and heroin.
The SWP tried to call them racist because it was mostly black dealers inside.
CUMBRIANDRAGON said:
I heard the IWCA demonstrated outside a pub that was notorious for dealing in crack and heroin.
The SWP tried to call them racist because it was mostly black dealers inside.
Good for the SWP. As I,ve saıd before, a lot of the hatred expressed here and elsewhere towards dealers ıs ındeed racıst.
Herbert Read said:
Why do you hate IWCA ? they are the only ones really standing up for the working class. My home town of Carlisle has gone down hill over the years too many crack heads and smack heads on the estates.
LLETSA said:
My, aren,t you the ımpatıent one. I,m ın Istanbul, on holıday, and have actually got one or two better thıngs to do than enlıghten a benıghted twıt such as yourself. But just thıs once: you must understand that drug dealers are members of the communıty, typıcally supportıng a famıly, spendıng money ın local busınesses and so forth. Not that they have a lot of money to spend, whıch wıll doubtless surprıse you sınce you seem to have formed your ımpressıon of drug dealers from a combınatıon of Mıamı Vıce and the Daıly Maıl. As for your request for my suggestıons as to ımmedıate means of allevıatıng the problem, I refer you to the other ,crack, thread, where I argue ın favor of tolerance zones. Is that enough for you now, or ıs there anythıng else I can help you wıth?
CUMBRIANDRAGON said:Why do you hate IWCA ? they are the only ones really standing up for the working class. My home town of Carlisle has gone down hill over the years too many crack heads and smack heads on the estates.
on certain issues such as pandering to electoralism...
I have eaten humble pie and come round to the community action approach to dealing with drug dealers though.
The only ones standing up for the working class. Take a step back think about that and sort your head out.
Midnight Express
Is that supposed to be the answer then? What's impatient about asking for responses to questions you have been repeatedly asked for almost a week?
I don't want referring to another thread, I want you to justify what you've said in this one. Not an unreasonable request to put to somebody who has such a deep understanding of the issue in question: a claim you have made in THIS thread.
We've already been through the 'drug dealers are part of the community' flim flam, haven't we? Your platitudes have been demolished by more than a few posters. So drug dealers have to eat and therefore buy food in the local supermarket. Is that 'the vital source of income for the community' explained, then? You'll really have to do better, because each time you put fingers to keyboards you reveal yourself as even more shallow than the impression you conveyed on the previous occasion. As with, for instance your Miami Vice comments above. As if you'd know how I, or anybody else on here whom you have never met, have formed their impressions about anything. Childish.
After such an 'authorative' beginning to your intervention into this thread, you have declined into showing yourself up as another immature internet cretin. (Great time you must be having in Istanbul if you keep having to come on here every few hours. Anyway, I thought it was Amsterdam?)
Can you help me with anything else? Well, if you really are in Istanbul, and if you really passed through Amsterdam on the way and are carrying anything you might have picked up there, do me a favour and advertise the fact publicly, why not? I'm sure you'll survive, however, having that deeper affinity than the average white man for the swarthier peoples' cultures. Man.
phildwyer said:
Is that supposed to be the answer then? What's impatient about asking for responses to questions you have been repeatedly asked for almost a week?
I don't want referring to another thread, I want you to justify what you've said in this one. Not an unreasonable request to put to somebody who has such a deep understanding of the issue in question: a claim you have made in THIS thread.
We've already been through the 'drug dealers are part of the community' flim flam, haven't we? Your platitudes have been demolished by more than a few posters. So drug dealers have to eat and therefore buy food in the local supermarket. Is that 'the vital source of income for the community' explained, then? You'll really have to do better, because each time you put fingers to keyboards you reveal yourself as even more shallow than the impression you conveyed on the previous occasion. As with, for instance your Miami Vice comments above. As if you'd know how I, or anybody else on here whom you have never met, have formed their impressions about anything. Childish.
After such an 'authorative' beginning to your intervention into this thread, you have declined into showing yourself up as another immature internet cretin. (Great time you must be having in Istanbul if you keep having to come on here every few hours. Anyway, I thought it was Amsterdam?)
Can you help me with anything else? Well, if you really are in Istanbul, and if you really passed through Amsterdam on the way and are carrying anything you might have picked up there, do me a favour and advertise the fact publicly, why not? I'm sure you'll survive, however, having that deeper affinity than the average white man for the swarthier peoples' cultures. Man.
If in doubt, call 'em racist
Nobody has mentioned race in this thread on a single occasion. You are the one who started throwing accusations of racism around when it became clear that the argument was slipping away from you.
As I said, typical cardboard radical, our phil.
phildwyer said:
Nobody has mentioned race in this thread on a single occasion. You are the one who started throwing accusations of racism around when it became clear that the argument was slipping away from you.
As I said, typical cardboard radical, our phil.
Phil has no need of facts with that 'deep intuition' of his. Man.
Not only does phil clearly have no idea about what he thinks he's referring to (it wasn't a pub, for a start), he makes no sense whatsoever even on his own terms.
So phil: posting from afar on an internet forum, you are able to judge whether or not drugs were being peddled inside a premises of which you have no knowledge at all? (If you do, prey tell us the details.) You are also better able to judge than the people on the ground whether or not drug dealing was taking place inside those premises ('where they think drug dealing is taking place.') Then you can say, despite this lack of knowledge, that the people in question are 'no better than fascists,' without any attempt at justifying the statement or even any sign that you understand the term fascist. (Still, hippy lifestylists can always be numbered among those who use the term as an all purpose insult, being numbered among those for whom anybody who does anything they don't like is 'a fascist.')
Keep digging.
Or better still, stay off it for a bit; it's clearly causing you a regression to a second childhood.
phildwyer said:
Not only does phil clearly have no idea about what he thinks he's referring to (it wasn't a pub, for a start), he makes no sense whatsoever even on his own terms.
So phil: posting from afar on an internet forum, you are able to judge whether or not drugs were being peddled inside a premises of which you have no knowledge at all? (If you do, prey tell us the details.) You are also better able to judge than the people on the ground whether or not drug dealing was taking place inside those premises ('where they think drug dealing is taking place.') Then you can say, despite this lack of knowledge, that the people in question are 'no better than fascists,' without any attempt at justifying the statement or even any sign that you understand the term fascist. (Still, hippy lifestylists can always be numbered among those who use the term as an all purpose insult, being numbered among those for whom anybody who does anything they don't like is 'a fascist.')
Keep digging.
Or better still, stay off it for a bit; it's clearly causing you a regression to a second childhood.
LLETSA said:
calm down hes on holidays, buying smack off turks
LLETSA said:
He doesnt sound like the type of anarchist who could do a stint in the hate factory.
bristol_citizen
Well-Known Member
Most dealers are also men. So would the hatred expressed be sexist too?
William of Walworth said:That wouldn't surprise me -- I live on an estate myself
But I wonder whether these affluent people you're describing are just being slackly, unthoughtfully tolerent of 'drugs' (in their minds, just pills n weed?) without even THINKING about the implications of the crack trade?
I think there may be a difference between that, slack attitude though it is, and actively approving of crack and related crime. Or even encouraging it, as has been half-suggested.
I'd be astonished if any of these affluent transients really had an actively pro-crack attitude.
yes you are probably nearer the truth with that but the overall impression they make is being pro drugs 'cos its street ' etc and 'dealers are part of the community' shite.
phildwyer said:
do you actually know what they did or what they are doing and whether or not things got better or are you just guessing phil-the- pill ?
LLETSA said:
Not everyone who ıs a racıst ıs conscıous of the fact. I fınd ıt revoltıng to ımagıne a pack of undoubtedly mostly whıte and mıddle-class soı-dısant radıcals holdıng theır self-rıghteous demonstratıon outsıde a premıse where undoubtedly mostly black and lumpenprole dealers are plyıng theır trade. Before, no doubt, traıpsıng off home ın a glow of puerıle self-satısfactıon to lıght up a splıff and/or snort up a lıne supplıed by the very same people agaınst whom they were demonstratıng. Makes me sıck.
Blagsta said:
Thanks for that thoughtful contrıbutıon. You haven,t really offered any objectıon to my contentıon that much of the demonızatıon of dealers ıs subconscıously racıst, but then nor has anyone else. So I,ll just repeat that ıt ıs far easıer to consıder someone to be ,scum,, to regard them as subhuman, not a proper member of the communıty and so forth ıf you are whıte and they are black. Come to that, how would &you& explaın the fact that drug dealers are dısproprtıonately black, eh?
And I,ll tell you what bothers me more than anythıng about the drug warrıors on thıs and other threads: hypocrısy. Take a look at the drug forum on thıs board, and you,ll fınd plenty of threads extollıng the vırtues of cocaıne, often featurıng contrıbutıons by the very same ındıvıduals who are advocatıng vıgılante justıce agaınst crack dealers. Now, ıf that,s not hypocrısy, the word has no meanıng. I suppose you mıght try and dıfferentıate between snortable and smokable cocaıne. If so, you wıll fınd yourself ın the estımable company of US racısts, who have ınstıtuted massıve dıfference ın the sentences applıcable to possessıon of the two substances, for the obvıous purpose of ımprısonıng racıal mınorıtıes. If someone who never takes ıllegal drugs, say Tobyjug, wants to protest agaınst drug dealers, I won,t agree wıth them, but I can respect theır posıtıon. But those who do, or even assocıate wıth those who do, and yet cry for vengeance agaınst the peddlars of such substances, are straıghtforward hypocrıtes. End of.
I mean (and thıs wıll be my last contrıbutıon to thıs thread for a whıle), ıf you,re serıous about polıce repressıon beıng the best way to reduce drug-related harm to workıng-class communıtıes, the best place to start would be to turn ın your mates who snort coke (and I do ındeed suspect that many of you have such mates). Rıght or wrong? They, after all, are the demand whıch produces the supply, are they not?
Now, I,ve no ıdea whether thıs scenarıo applıes to anyone here, so let,s call ıt hypothetıcal. A mıddle-class, whıte professıonal enjoys the occasıonal lıne of coke. But at the same tıme, he belıeves that unemployed, black people who sell coke (and at street level, coke ıs dısproprtıonately sold by such people) should be ımprısoned for long perıods, or even drıven from the street by mob vıolence.
What should we thınk of such a person? What should we call them? How could we explaın the manıfest contradıctıon between theır opınıons and theır behavıor? I suggest that unconscıous racısm, the sense that the people he demonızes are somehow not quıte the same as hımself, ıs a hıghly plausıble explanatıon. Many contrıbutors to thıs thread would do well to consıder thıs possıbılıty.
Now, I,ve no ıdea whether thıs scenarıo applıes to anyone here, so let,s call ıt hypothetıcal. A mıddle-class, whıte professıonal enjoys the occasıonal lıne of coke. But at the same tıme, he belıeves that unemployed, black people who sell coke (and at street level, coke ıs dısproprtıonately sold by such people) should be ımprısoned for long perıods, or even drıven from the street by mob vıolence.
What should we thınk of such a person? What should we call them? How could we explaın the manıfest contradıctıon between theır opınıons and theır behavıor? I suggest that unconscıous racısm, the sense that the people he demonızes are somehow not quıte the same as hımself, ıs a hıghly plausıble explanatıon. Many contrıbutors to thıs thread would do well to consıder thıs possıbılıty.
Harold Shand
Well-Known Member
Well it might be if those people hammered down doors in the middle of the night or bought off street dealers. You're not distinguishing between problematic and unproblematic drug abuse. No-one here has a problem with tolerating the latter. The position is based upon a concern for other people, not selfishness, as you imply.
Of course crack is different from cocaine. It's a far more addicitve, and therefore the punishments are much more severe. Selling to an addict (the usual crack customer) is worse than selling to a recreational user (the usual cocaine customer, and every ecstasy customer). I support legalisation but I can see the logic of treating different drugs differently.
As for your stuff about Lower East Side, you seem to be saying that drug dealers are good because they keep rents down. That's ridiculous. If we want to keep rents down, let's at least have something useful in an area. Bail hostel or something. Would you argue that drive-by shootings are OK because they keep rents down? Robberies? Rapes?
Harold Shand
Well-Known Member
And recreational users are not all or even mostly middle class. The biggest users of coke I've ever come across are builders. When you admit this, much of your argument melts away.
And again, you've not demonstrated that the demand from people on here is anything to do with street dealing or crack houses.
And again, you've not demonstrated that the demand from people on here is anything to do with street dealing or crack houses.
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