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Is Brexit actually going to happen?

Will we have a brexit?


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The Spectator - that house organ of the insane, flag-waving, no-deal, Singapore-on-Thames, Rexit right - is now calling for a second referendum.

Nick Clegg is right: we need a second Brexit referendum | Coffee House

First and second preference votes for three options - accept the deal, revert to status quo ante, crash out - and AV to determine the winner.

Bring it on, I think remain could win that.

And it's interesting that some Brexitloons will be so angry about any settlement which looks like soft Brexit that they'd happily roll the dice again.
I think remain would almost certainly win that. How many of the 48 per cent who voted remain would do anything other than vote remain again? Very few, I would think. The 52 per cent leave voters will be split by the other two options. I couldn't see anything other than Remain winning that. Seems unlikely to happen.
 
I think remain would almost certainly win that. How many of the 48 per cent who voted remain would do anything other than vote remain again? Very few, I would think. The 52 per cent leave voters will be split by the other two options. I couldn't see anything other than Remain winning that. Seems unlikely to happen.
No split votes with AV
 
I think remain would almost certainly win that. How many of the 48 per cent who voted remain would do anything other than vote remain again? Very few, I would think. The 52 per cent leave voters will be split by the other two options. I couldn't see anything other than Remain winning that. Seems unlikely to happen.

If all the 52% who voted leave had the two flavours of Brexit as first and second preference, in either order, then under AV there would still be a Brexit.
 
I think remain would almost certainly win that. How many of the 48 per cent who voted remain would do anything other than vote remain again? Very few, I would think. The 52 per cent leave voters will be split by the other two options. I couldn't see anything other than Remain winning that. Seems unlikely to happen.
Martin Schulz wants 'United States of Europe' within five years Five Presidents again (not sure what it would actually take for this lot to change agenda)
 
If all the 52% who voted leave had the two flavours of Brexit as first and second preference, in either order, then under AV there would still be a Brexit.
yeah, but they won't. There would only need to be a very few of those voting 'soft' preferring 'remain' to 'hard' for remain to win.
 
Yes, fair point. I stand corrected. I still think this would produce a remain result.

Yeah, that's my view as well.

You're calling the deal "soft", btw. I'd call the deal outlined above "soft, transitioning to hard". I wouldn't call no deal "hard", I'd call it "insane".

What if the options were: none, soft, soft transitioning to hard, insane?

Much more difficult to work out how that would end up playing under AV.
 
Yeah, that's my view as well.

You're calling the deal "soft", btw. I'd call the deal outlined above "soft, transitioning to hard". I wouldn't call no deal "hard", I'd call it "insane".

What if the options were: none, soft, soft transitioning to hard, insane?

Much more difficult to work out how that would end up playing under AV.
With that one, I still think there'd be close to that 48 percent figure for 'none' as first pref. AV tends to produce the least-hated option as the winner, not necessarily the most liked, and in that scenario, I would guess that the vast majority of those voting 'none' would have 'soft' as their second pref. So I think 'none' would still stand a very good chance of winning, with the only other option even remotely possible as a winner being 'soft'. 'soft-to-hard' and 'insane' would be a long way back.

ETA: I actually still think it would be very unlikely that 'none' would lose. But if, say, soft and none were the top two after the other two are eliminated, maybe soft could squeak it. If 'soft to hard' and 'none' are the top two, that would mean 'none' winning, probably comfortably, as enough 'soft's would have 'none' as second-pref.
 
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With that one, I still think there'd be close to that 48 percent figure for 'none' as first pref. AV tends to produce the least-hated option as the winner, not necessarily the most liked, and in that scenario, I would guess that the vast majority of those voting 'none' would have 'soft' as their second pref. So I think 'none' would still stand a very good chance of winning, with the only other option even remotely possible as a winner being 'soft'. 'soft-to-hard' and 'insane' would be a long way back.

You'd have thought.

Two complicating factors.

1) People have a tendency to choose the middle option rather than the extremes. Especially when they feel they are being asked a difficult question. Yes, I know that few people faced with a ballot paper choose the LDs, but that's rather more complicated and tribal.

2) People who support none are likely not to bother selecting the other options as second and third preferences. This always happens in AV, to a huge extent. It's because people are fairly dim and AV is confusing. The 52% are likely to select at least two out of the three brexit options, though. All of this could skew the figures should second preferences come into play.

Anyway, despite all this, I'd still (second preference) like it to happen and I still think it won't. My first preference is for a remainist fudge, of course - revoke, set up a Royal Commission, and hope everyone forgets about it.
 
See thread title.

As Silas Loom says. It is entirely on-topic.

If you want to be literal to the thread title then this thread could be closed after one post: YES.

What brexit looks like when it's done is another matter, but all this devising referendum formulas that could reverse the result of the first one is childish drivel.
 
If you want to be literal to the thread title then this thread could be closed after one post: YES.

What brexit looks like when it's done is another matter, but all this devising referendum formulas that could reverse the result of the first one is childish drivel.

You say reverse, others might say clarify. As it stands, the answer provided last year is meaningless.
 
Are you going to start calling people 'remoaners' next?

I don't think I've previously used that term, and I wasn't intending to start now.

BTW, are you making any progress tracking down all the EU projects currently benefiting the people of Greece which are about to be suspended after the loss of the UK's contribution? The way you've been banging on on this subject, I'm slightly disappointed you didn't already have a list ready to post when I asked you the first time, but maybe it's just slipped your mind while engaging in day dreams of what Nick Clegg would do
 
With that one, I still think there'd be close to that 48 percent figure for 'none' as first pref. AV tends to produce the least-hated option as the winner, not necessarily the most liked, and in that scenario, I would guess that the vast majority of those voting 'none' would have 'soft' as their second pref. So I think 'none' would still stand a very good chance of winning, with the only other option even remotely possible as a winner being 'soft'. 'soft-to-hard' and 'insane' would be a long way back.
All speculative of course, as it won't happen. My guess though is that turnout would be down, possibly hitting the brexit vote more than remain. Not so much former brexiteers changing their minds or sitting on their hands, more a case of having done the fuck you protest and not bothering to do it again. Equally though, the brexit campaign would have an open goal to portray the other side as Remoaning minnies, liberal elites trying to get the voters to overturn a vote they didn't like. But then again... the brexit campaign wouldn't be able to pull the 'free money for the NHS' stunt. Instead the Remoaniacs would be able to point out it will cost £50 billion for starters.

Right, I've displayed my vacillation working out: I'd guess Remain might win 54-46 if we had a re-run in, say, January. Game of Battleships for 2 out of 3?
 
Oh give over, the question was should the UK leave the EU, the answer was YES. How would you like that clarifying?

On what terms, without collapsing the economy and with due consideration for the Good Friday Agreement, the rights of EU citizens in the UK, and so on?

Pretending that any of this is simple puts you in rock-hard Brexiteer territory. There isn't a Lexit space for pretending this isn't complicated. The only consistent position you can adopt while saying "it ain't complex, let's just leave" is the Singapore on Thames one which has travel agents retraining as potato harvesters and moving to Lincolnshire.
 
All speculative of course, as it won't happen. My guess though is that turnout would be down, possibly hitting the brexit vote more than remain. Not so much former brexiteers changing their minds or sitting on their hands, more a case of having done the fuck you protest and not bothering to do it again. Equally though, the brexit campaign would have an open goal to portray the other side as Remoaning minnies, liberal elites trying to get the voters to overturn a vote they didn't like. But then again... the brexit campaign wouldn't be able to pull the 'free money for the NHS' stunt. Instead the Remoaniacs would be able to point out it will cost £50 billion for starters.

Right, I've displayed my vacillation working out: I'd guess Remain might win 54-46 if we had a re-run in, say, January. Game of Battleships for 2 out of 3?
Why has this turned in to a remainer fantasies thread?
Curses, I've been made to look foolish! :eek:
 
All speculative of course, as it won't happen. My guess though is that turnout would be down, possibly hitting the brexit vote more than remain. Not so much former brexiteers changing their minds or sitting on their hands, more a case of having done the fuck you protest and not bothering to do it again. Equally though, the brexit campaign would have an open goal to portray the other side as Remoaning minnies, liberal elites trying to get the voters to overturn a vote they didn't like. But then again... the brexit campaign wouldn't be able to pull the 'free money for the NHS' stunt. Instead the Remoaniacs would be able to point out it will cost £50 billion for starters.

Right, I've displayed my vacillation working out: I'd guess Remain might win 54-46 if we had a re-run in, say, January. Game of Battleships for 2 out of 3?
You do know that £50 billion was going to the EU anyway? Had someone on facebook trying to say lets stay, and spend the £50billion on the NHS -more dodgy than the bus claim.
 
On what terms, without collapsing the economy and with due consideration for the Good Friday Agreement, the rights of EU citizens in the UK, and so on?

Pretending that any of this is simple puts you in rock-hard Brexiteer territory. There isn't a Lexit space for pretending this isn't complicated. The only consistent position you can adopt while saying "it ain't complex, let's just leave" is the Singapore on Thames one which has travel agents retraining as potato harvesters and moving to Lincolnshire.
The consequences of the vote might be messy and/or complex and/or bad. But the vote really was simple. A second referendum wasn't built in - probably should have been - but can't be time travelled into being. Or alternatively some group of politicians has to risk their careers and try and unpick the whole thing. Outside of libdem arsery, it ain't going to happen.
 
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