Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[philosophical]

The William Topaz McGonagall of Urban poets eh? What is this "cultural geneticism" of which you speak? Does it also mean people who are or have been colonised are genetically coded towards being colonised?

What I meant, poorly expressed, I that so much of established British culture contains a colonial disdain for so many other countries woven in. Hence Javid framing his stupid idea as a way of doing the Irish a favour.

 

[xenon]

I hate those racist brits.
It's in their DNA.

 

[Poi E]

The British as a people is a bit of a rear view mirror thing these days.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes you are right, British Colonial history which is still in place.

history is always there

 

[SpackleFrog]

surely, that would sink any other politician, perhaps even falange?, but for some reason, not johnson

Would it really though? I mean he's just getting a number for a school mate so he can beat some guy up. Is the electorate actually outraged by that?

Maybe in a sensible place like Italy but not here.

That's a joke right? Remember Berlusconi? Who actually has just been elected as an MEP?

 

[Adsgr8adventure]

The ballot papers said remain or leave the EU and the voters chose leave.

The voters where lied to. You can not say that they where not.

 

[Ming]

The voters where lied to. You can not say that they where not.

Seems to be the spirit of the age. Identify a bunch of thick cunts in gerrymandered voting districts. Lie to them. Get a mandate. Job done.

 

[Dogsauce]

Euro ref had nothing to do with districts. Couldn’t have been simpler.

 

[SpackleFrog]

The voters where lied to. You can not say that they where not.

And you cannot say that this is new or different.

 

[Ming]

Euro ref had nothing to do with districts. Couldn’t have been simpler.

Referring to modern right wing political tactics (should have made that clearer). Although they did lie they're arses off in the referendum (and continue to do so).

 

[redsquirrel]

Seems to be the spirit of the age. Identify a bunch of thick cunts in gerrymandered voting districts. Lie to them. Get a mandate. Job done.

Statements like this, and the attitude behind them, had far more with Leave winning than any stupid buses.

 

[chilango]

Leave campaigners lied? Boooo!

Let's listen to the not lying Remainers then....

 

[Poi E]

After serving the nation the guy is just trying to get some peace in his £5 million mansion in California.

 

[Proper Tidy]

'it was the bus' not the failed political consensus of the last 40 years

 

[DotCommunist]

After serving the nation the guy is just trying to get some peace in his £5 million mansion in California.

I heard he takes money to talk shit for facebook now

 

[eoin_k]

And you cannot say that this is new or different.

To be fair, the argument that politicians lie all the time does a better job of highlighting the limits of liberal democracy in general than it does of defending the outcome of the referendum. If anything, this line of reasoning supports the results of all those other elections because politicians lie all the time, but hey that's democracy! Otherwise, we don't need to see this exercise as having been particularly democratic either and it's legitimate to examine the ways in which the process was manipulated. This might work against remainers who have any illusions about the EU and liberal democracy, but it provides cold comfort for those who are simply concerned that the process seems to be headed towards yet more disaster capitalism led by social reactionaries with the rest of us increasingly divided along lines of race and nationality etc.

 

[SpackleFrog]

To be fair, the argument that politicians lie all the time does a better job of highlighting the limits of liberal democracy in general than it does of defending the outcome of the referendum. If anything, this line of reasoning supports the results of all those other elections because politicians lie all the time, but hey that's democracy! Otherwise, we don't need to see this exercise as having been particularly democratic either and it's legitimate to examine the ways in which the process was manipulated. This might work against remainers who have any illusions about the EU and liberal democracy, but it provides cold comfort for those who are simply concerned that the process seems to be headed towards yet more disaster capitalism led by social reactionaries with the rest of us increasingly divided along lines of race and nationality etc.

You presuppose a difference between remainers who hold illusions about the EU and liberal democracy and those who are 'simply' concerned about disaster capitalism, reaction and nationalism. There isn't one. Your fundamental point is still the belief that EU membership is protecting us from something.

It's not about convincing people, it's just about pointing to the hypocrisy of those who use this line, having never previously cared too much whether politicians lied or not.

 

[Mr Moose]

You presuppose a difference between remainers who hold illusions about the EU and liberal democracy and those who are 'simply' concerned about disaster capitalism, reaction and nationalism. There isn't one. Your fundamental point is still the belief that EU membership is protecting us from something.

It's not about convincing people, it's just about pointing to the hypocrisy of those who use this line, having never previously cared too much whether politicians lied or not.

What is it you are relying on for protection outside of the EU?

 

[Pickman's model]

It's not about convincing people, it's just about pointing to the hypocrisy of those who use this line, having never previously cared too much whether politicians lied or not.

by never much cared i suppose you mean never taken them to court before

 

[teuchter]

having never previously cared too much whether politicians lied or not.

It's not like the lib dems suffered electorally for that fees pledge thing, right?

 

[treelover]

Trump protests don't seem to big this time.

 

[Pickman's model]

Trump protests don't seem to big this time.

what's this thread?

 

[killer b]

Trump protests don't seem to big this time.

That's good isn't it?

 

[cupid_stunt]

Trump protests don't seem to big this time.

Perhaps post that on the Trump thread, and not derail this one.

 

[eoin_k]

You presuppose a difference between remainers who hold illusions about the EU and liberal democracy and those who are 'simply' concerned about disaster capitalism, reaction and nationalism. There isn't one. Your fundamental point is still the belief that EU membership is protecting us from something.
[...]

Can you help me explain that to my Brasilian brother-in-law, who holds an Italian passport, or the anarchist mate I'd always previously assumed was second-generation Italian, or my partner's Portuguese NHS colleagues, or my relatives who live along the northern side of the Irish border, or the old school friend who explained how his recent redundancy was specifically due to Brexit? All of them see this as an unmitigated disaster, even if they appreciate the contradictions with the EU.

Simply dismissing their fears, never mind all the others who voted remain out of concern for people like them, as no different from uncritical supporters of the EU shows a basic lack of solidarity. That doesn't mean there isn't a political case for Lexit, but how this will come about is far from clear, leaving plenty of room for legitimate concerns about what happens next. After all, you don't need to be nostalgic about Keynesianism to see that neoliberalism was a disaster for most people. Given the current balance of power, it's hard to see events not following a similar trajectory, only worse.

 

[DotCommunist]

It's not like the lib dems suffered electorally for that fees pledge thing, right?

Memories do seem a little short on that one tuechter, have you not seen the bounce? hopefully they will fade away again tho

 

[Ranbay]

Trump protests don't seem to big this time.

What are you doing about it?

 

[Pickman's model]

What are you doing about it?

treelover will do what he always does about things: a moment or two of froth and then nothing.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Can you help me explain that to my Brasilian brother-in-law, who holds an Italian passport, or the anarchist mate I'd always previously assumed was second-generation Italian, or my partner's Portuguese NHS colleagues, or my relatives who live along the northern side of the Irish border, or the old school friend who explained how his recent redundancy was specifically due to Brexit? All of them see this as an unmitigated disaster, even if they appreciate the contradictions with the EU.

Simply dismissing their fears, never mind all the others who voted remain out of concern for people like them, as no different from uncritical supporters of the EU shows a basic lack of solidarity. That doesn't mean there isn't a political case for Lexit, but how this will come about is far from clear, leaving plenty of room for legitimate concerns about what happens next. After all, you don't need to be nostalgic about Keynesianism to see that neoliberalism was a disaster for most people. Given the current balance of power, it's hard to see events not following a similar trajectory, only worse.

I'm not making a case for Lexit. Never have, don't like the word or what it seems to mean.

I understand why they might see the referendum result as a disaster and I don't wish to be unsympathetic. But had the referendum result gone a different way, their migration status and their jobs would not be any safer. EU membership is not protecting anyone from anything. The Windrush generation were not protected from deportations by EU membership or citizenship. The hundreds of thousands of jobs lost over the last couple of decades were not protected by EU membership or citizenship.

What happens next is largely governed by who holds power. There was an opportunity - and still is - to get rid of the Tories and have a left Labour govt. That's not to sow illusions in Corbyn or pretend it would all be bread and jam, but you talked about the balance of power. Every individual at every level of society who has prioritised attempting to reverse the referendum result over fighting to get the Tories out is consistently thwarting that opportunity, which is integral to the whole question of what comes next, whether they understand that or not and by now they really should.

The argument that "things might get worse" makes no sense when things have been getting worse for such a long time. It's a little Englander mentality that does not see the likes of Macron, Merkel, Juncker, Orban, Salvini, Le Pen, Michaloliakos and what is actually happening in the rest of the EU.

Real solidarity means honesty. Pushing this nonsense that lies were printed on a bus so the referendum can be reversed and everything can go back to normal is not solidarity, it's a lie.

 

[belboid]

But had the referendum result gone a different way, their migration status and their jobs would not be any safer. EU membership is not protecting anyone from anything.

I'll agree with the rest. But that really is just nonsense. Of course continued EU membership would have made their migration status more secure. With continued EU membership they wouldn't be migrants at all, in effect.