Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[gosub]

I think their line is pretty straightforward tbh: honour the result of the referendum while retaining as many of the benefits of the EU as possible, and flexibility on how that is achieved.

Starmer has been consistent throughout, as far as I've seen - what's he said where he's contradicted himself?

Labour MPs were, two weeks ago, whipped into voting against continued membership of the Single Market and the Customs Union. Some of those who defied the whip lost jobs apparently.

 

[Winot]

Labour MPs were, two weeks ago, whipped into voting against continued membership of the Single Market and the Customs Union. Some of those who defied the whip lost jobs apparently.

Strictly speaking they were whipped to abstain, but it was because the party doesn't support full single market membership:

Corbyn sacks three frontbenchers after single market vote

 

[gosub]

Strictly speaking they were whipped to abstain, but it was because the party doesn't support full single market membership:

Corbyn sacks three frontbenchers after single market vote

only now Starmer wants it back on the table. I think he's right, but its hardly consistent.

Omnishambles all round

 

[killer b]

Labour MPs were, two weeks ago, whipped into voting against continued membership of the Single Market and the Customs Union. Some of those who defied the whip lost jobs apparently.

Yeah, I'm fairly sure that would have compromised the 'flexibility' bit of the Labour position.

 

[bemused]

only now Starmer wants it back on the table. I think he's right, but its hardly consistent.

Omnishambles all round

I believe this is called 'doing a Starmer'

 

[killer b]

Most of those Labour backbench amendments that were supported by 25 MPs were never meant to achieve anything but either bounce the leadership into committing to something it wasn't going to commit to, or political posturing to the remainer base. They don't actually reveal anything about the party's position, other than a refusal to be pinned down.

 

[bemused]

Most of those Labour backbench amendments that were supported by 25 MPs were never meant to achieve anything but either bounce the leadership into committing to something it wasn't going to commit to, or political posturing to the remainer base. They don't actually reveal anything about the party's position, other than a refusal to be pinned down.

It was a whipped vote, MPs lost shadow positions for expressing the view of their constituents. 'refusal to be pinned down' sums up the Labour position very well.

 

[killer b]

...yes. That's explicitly their position. It's not that hard to understand is it?

 

[Pickman's model]

Strictly speaking they were whipped to abstain, but it was because the party doesn't support full single market membership:

Corbyn sacks three frontbenchers after single market vote

So two lots of sackings then, five months ago and two weeks ago. How confusing

 

[bemused]

...yes. That's explicitly their position. It's not that hard to understand is it?

It is hard to understand, for me at least, why a major political party doesn't have a policy guiding one of the biggest political questions of a generation beyond being as vague as possible. The excuse 'we don't want to upset our voters' doesn't really cut it. Surely a party that wants to be the government should be more courageous than that and articulate a real view, rather than marking Davis' homework?

 

[killer b]

But it does have a policy, which is (essentially):

honour the result of the referendum while retaining as many of the benefits of the EU as possible, and flexibility on how that is achieved.

Abstaining on backbencher amendments which are mostly there to make trouble for their own party's leadership is ensuring they're able to remain flexible is all.

 

[bimble]

It might tactically make sense for them to just stay out of it get photographed by GQ with your sleeves rolled up and say as little as possible about brexit but not convinced that's doing a great job of being the Opposition.

 

[Silas Loom]

It might tactically make sense for them to just stay out of it get photographed by GQ with your sleeves rolled up and say as little as possible about brexit but not convinced that's doing a great job of being the Opposition.

Precisely.

 

[bemused]

But it does have a policy, which is (essentially):

That's the same objectives at the Tories.

 

[Silas Loom]

backbencher amendments which are mostly there to make trouble for their own party's leadership

Seriously, you are Karie Murphy AICM€5

 

[killer b]

Seriously, you are Karie Murphy AICM€5

Oh, I've no illusions that Corbyn spent most of his political career doing exactly the same thing. But lets call it what it is.

 

[DotCommunist]

not being The Opposition is failing to come out with reassuringly pro EU lines of policy isn't it? And given you, silas, have stated you'd rather this was all sorted out by labour lords behind closed doors, have some neck to give it precisely.

besides as Theresa May has amply demonstrated, red lines at this time are not red lines, they're climbdowns in waiting

 

[killer b]

That's the same objectives at the Tories.

So what you want is an anti-brexit party?

 

[Teaboy]

It might tactically make sense for them to just stay out of it get photographed by GQ with your sleeves rolled up and say as little as possible about brexit but not convinced that's doing a great job of being the Opposition.

Yes but that's how being in opposition works, the clue is in the name. You just attack the government and only make vague claims yourself, why would you deflect the pressure from the government onto yourself? You really only announce concrete policies come election time. That's how its always been done by both Labour and the tories. Its frustrating but that is how you be in opposition, you oppose.

 

[Silas Loom]

not being The Opposition is failing to come out with reassuringly pro EU lines of policy isn't it? And given you, silas, have stated you'd rather this was all sorted out by labour lords behind closed doors, have some neck to give it precisely.

This is gibberish. Happy to answer it when it is rephrased and makes sense.

 

[bimble]

not being The Opposition is failing to come out with reassuringly pro EU lines of policy isn't it? And given you, silas, have stated you'd rather this was all sorted out by labour lords behind closed doors, have some neck to give it precisely.

besides as Theresa May has amply demonstrated, red lines at this time are not red lines, they're climbdowns in waiting

I thought maybe in this case being the opposition might mean saying how you differ from the tory party in your views of how brexit should be done, what you think it should mean, what we should be trying to get out of any deal, that sort of thing.

 

[Teaboy]

Labour are not in power so its pretty irrelevant what they want because it can't happen. We'd need an election and they didn't win the one we had recently. It could be a very different situation when the next election comes round so why would you tie yourself to something now?

 

[gosub]

It was a whipped vote, MPs lost shadow positions for expressing the view of their constituents. 'refusal to be pinned down' sums up the Labour position very well.

or for that matter the governments. Though she is having to stand astride so many horses to keep her slender majority going I suppose that is to be expected.

One thing I did take from from Davis' non impact assessment was that they privately think the impact to be so damaging and Brexit so unsettled, that it was expedient not to commission them.

 

[bemused]

So what you want is an anti-brexit party?

I'd like Labour to have a more grown-up face of brexit than Starmer - he looks like he's being held hostage. He's neither good at attacking the government position nor articulating a pragmatic Labour position.

 

[MightyTibberton]

The Government doesn't even have a final position on the settlement they'd like to see - Hammond has just admitted it.

Personally, I think a lot of the Conservative Party - including quite likely Davis - are quite happy for a no deal Brexit to go through so they can privatise the fuck out of everything left in public ownership and sell off the NHS to American health insurance companies.

 

[DotCommunist]

yeah they'll be coming for the rail and the post

 

[BemusedbyLife]

There's a scene in Life of Brian where the People's Front of Judea and the Judean Peoples Front sneak into Pontius Pilates palace and then start beating shit out of each other while the Romans just watch, this is what it feels like watching the Tories negotiate Brexit, At the moment everyone is so distracted by the awesome shit show on offer that most folks don't seem to be paying attention to the fact that Labour are keeping schtum.
But sooner or later they need to start laying down a position, preferably sooner because the Tory bloodbath is getting so far out of hand that Corbyn might (probably as much to his surprise as anyone else) find himself in the hot seat of running the negotiations.

 

[bemused]

Personally, I think a lot of the Conservative Party - including quite likely Davis - are quite happy for a no deal Brexit to go through so they can privatise the fuck out of everything left in public ownership and sell off the NHS to American health insurance companies.

I don't think so, I think they feel that a free(ish) trade deal is achievable and want to get to that bit asap. Then we can sign those cracking free trade deals with the independent powerhouses like New Zealand.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Labour are keeping schtum.
But sooner or later they need to start laying down a position

They have laid down their position. Nothing they say further will change the car-crash the tories are making of this, all a firm promise will do is tie Labour in knots once St Corbs hits #10, so best just sit back until such a time as what they say can make a difference to the outcome.

 

[SpackleFrog]

places on the planet.