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Is Brexit actually going to happen?

Will we have a brexit?

  • Yes - A fully independant Britain making its own way in the world (apart from scotland).

    Votes: 66 18.2%

  • A Semi-Detached Norway type deal

    Votes: 111 30.7%

  • No - 2nd referendum and/or face saving fudge to let us slink back in feeling a bit fucking stupid

    Votes: 185 51.1%
  • Total voters
    362
Sunset Tree said:
Doesn't matter how big the lie is. The remain campaign is claiming Brexit will literally kill people through medicine shortages.

The brexit bus doesn't matter. People aren't passively manipulated by propaganda to that extent, they'll have voted brexit for many different reasons.

The non-binding thing was only brought up afterwards as a cop-out, nobody thought they were voting in an 'advisory' referendum, what would even be the point.
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One lie on one bus caused a two percent swing to Leave? Don't reckon.

I agree about the advisory thing. Never fucking mentioned at all until the results came in.
 
Favelado said:
One lie on one bus caused a two percent swing to Leave? Don't reckon.

I agree about the advisory thing. Never fucking mentioned at all until the results came in.
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If remain had had genuine links with the people, never mind the working class, they'd have been able to nail that lie.
 
redsquirrel said:
This cartoon villain view of the Tories is silly. The vast majority of Tory party members aren't sitting in their clubs laughing manically about robbing the poor. They believe that their policies and actions are the best course for people and for the country, just like Labour and LD members and MPs.

The pantomime-esque evil Tory is the type of nonsense the let the fucking LDs in. Never mind that they want the same policies they aren't Tories so they must be on the right side. "Austerity" isn't a Tory thing, it was started by Labour (and supported by them until 2015), it was continued and promoted by the LDs.
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We’ll have to agree to differ i’m afraid. I do think they sit around in policy making meetings planning on how to, for example, defeat the unions or how to sell off the NHS. I also know that they lie openly about these things (see The Health and Social Care Act 2012 to give one example) and I do think they sit around in these meetings discussing how much they think the public are willing to take (hence the post no-deal planning for military and police involvement) etc, etc. No they’re not cartoon villains. Idealism in the Tory party? Maybe when they’re younger and they’ve just finished Hayek, Rand and Strauss as undergraduates but i’m Pretty sure that doesn’t last too long. If they thought their ideas were so great for everyone they wouldn’t lie about them and conceal their real agenda (Dave ‘get rid of the green crap’ Cameron).
 
No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party that inflicted those bitter experiences on me. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin. They condemned millions of first-class people to semi-starvation. Now the Tories are pouring out money in propaganda of all sorts and are hoping by this organised sustained mass suggestion to eradicate from our minds all memory of what we went through. But, I warn you young men and women, do not listen to what they are saying now. Do not listen to the seductions of Lord Woolton. He is a very good salesman. If you are selling shoddy stuff you have to be a good salesman. But I warn you they have not changed, or if they have they are slightly worse than they were.
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plus ca change...
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Bevan summed up the tories in two words, as true now as it was then:

What is Toryism but organised spivvery?

Of course that organised spivvery is not confined to the tory party. Blair was also a splendid example.
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Her greatest achievement. One thing though from a personal point of view about NL. They did put a lot of money into the NHS. My nursing cohort (2004-2007) was the biggest John Moores University had ever seen and i probably wouldn’t have made it on to the course but for that (id been out of work with depression for 4 years at that point). So NL had a huge positive effect on my life.
 
killer b said:
I dunno, I think they're doing their best. Under what other circumstances could Corbyn be in with a good chance of becoming the next prime minister, except when the ruling class are busy elsewhere?
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There was a huge demo today for a People's Vote. And for all the snide comments about it (which I have completely joined in with) a lot of the people on that march would have happily joined a Tories Out demo organised by the unions or by Corbyn or both.

Sure, some of them were chanting "Where's Jeremy Corbyn?". But if Corbyn had called a Tories Out demo, then it would be a lot harder for them to say that.

If - and I know it's if and I know it ain't happening - if the TUC had called mass rolling protests after May brought her deal back and first pulled the 'meaningful vote' - then May and the Tories would be gone by now. And the best chance Corbyn could have of being PM would be on the back of such a movement in the streets. So I don't accept that they're doing their best, sorry, it's just not good enough.
 
SpookyFrank said:
Far as I know only an act of parliament is 'binding' and even then (as illustrated by Iain Duncan Smith retrospectively changing a law he'd been caught breaking) it's not really.

There definitely wasn't any binding requirement to invoke article 50 before there was any kind of plan or deal in place. That particular piece of madness was entiely May's invention.
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Or the people who advised her it was a good idea.

Not that it matters but if you're pro-Remain and want to stop Brexit, then the early invocation of A50 was incredibly useful.
 
Down the cafe last night to enjoy a glass of wine and to my horror found that the price had gone up! It now costs the equivalent of 50p for a very large glass of wine. Not brexit just tourism.

Anyway met a couple that have just moved over from Britain for the quiet life. After explaining that they felt the government was in a headlong retreat from the EU bordering on a rout they asked me who I thought was pulling the strings?

Could not answer at the time but as wine level receded gave it a little thought.

I think it could be any of three USA, Russia or China.

China appears to be insinuating itself by trade and investment.

Russia, I feel, would not bother as a strong europe is still a buffer between them and the USA.

My money is on the USA, after seeing Trump on the Portuguese news telling the Portuguese prime minister that the EU was a military alliance I feel that is how the Americans see the EU.

So it seems likely they would try to take out the weakest link.
 
Ming said:
We’ll have to agree to differ i’m afraid. I do think they sit around in policy making meetings planning on how to, for example, defeat the unions or how to sell off the NHS.
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Yes many Tories are in favour of restrictions on unions, in favour of privatisation but not because they want to hurt people but because they think that such policies are beneficial to the country as a whole.

Heidi Allen is a good example, her tears for camera might have been hammed up a little but she (like the vast majority of MPs) was/is no doubt deeply affected by the poverty she saw - despite voting (like MPs from many parties) for the very policies the have increased poverty. The senior management team (many Labour supporters) at my institution have just made a load of redundancies, I absolutely believe them when they say that they didn't want to make these redundancies, that they feel the people they are making redundant. But like Allen despite that feeling they have still implemented policies that damage people. In both cases arguments for the greater good, there being no other choice, that it's in the national/institutional interest would be invoked, and with a genuine belief.

Now none of this means that either the Allen or the bosses at my institution aren't wrong, they absolutely are. Nor do I feel much/any sympathy for them, I reserve that for the people they are attacking. My politics is opposed to theirs and they are the class/political enemy. But they are a class/political enemy because their interests are opposed to mine and my comrades interests not because we wear white shirts and they wear black.

Yes the Conservative party have enacted a series of policies that have increased poverty in this country, but so have Labour so have the LDs, both these parties have supported policies that have partly privatised the NHS, the education system, etc, both these parties have attacked the welfare state. Labour were in power for 12 years and did nothing to roll back trade union legislation, the liberal democrats are certainly no friends to the unions. Does that mean MPs in those parties are "just in it for the money" too? At this very moment Tory, Labour LD, green, SNP, etc councillors are attacking unions and workers are they all just in it for the money?
 
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Manifesto

Stay in it and change it for the better:

"... rule by Europe’s peoples, government by the demos, is the shared nightmare of:
  • The Brussels bureaucracy (and its more than 10,000 lobbyists)
  • Its hit-squad inspectorates and the Troika they formed together with unelected ‘technocrats’ from other international and European institutions
  • The powerful Eurogroup that has no standing in law or treaty
  • Bailed out bankers, fund managers and resurgent oligarchies perpetually contemptuous of the multitudes and their organised expression
  • Political parties appealing to liberalism, democracy, freedom and solidarity to betray their most basic principles when in government
  • Governments that fuel cruel inequality by implementing self-defeating austerity
  • Media moguls who have turned fear-mongering into an art form, and a magnificent source of power and profit
  • Corporations in cahoots with secretive public agencies investing in the same fear to promote secrecy and a culture of surveillance that bend public opinion to their will.
The European Union was an exceptional achievement, bringing together in peace European peoples speaking different languages, submersed in different cultures, proving that it was possible to create a shared framework of human rights across a continent that was, not long ago, home to murderous chauvinism, racism and barbarity. The European Union could have been the proverbial Beacon on the Hill, showing the world how peace and solidarity may be snatched from the jaws of centuries-long conflict and bigotry."

"Two dreadful options dominate:
• Retreat into the cocoon of our nation-states
• Or surrender to the Brussels democracy-free zone
There must be another course. And there is!"
 
Supine said:
So, lots of talk about cabinet removing maybot soon. Don't know about you guys, but I'll miss her sunny smiley face :eek: :D
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How does that work then? They had their chance and fucked it, now they have to wait another year. Perhaps they plan to bully the fuck out of her until she resigns.
 
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