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Is Brexit actually going to happen?

Will we have a brexit?

  • Yes - A fully independant Britain making its own way in the world (apart from scotland).

    Votes: 66 18.2%

  • A Semi-Detached Norway type deal

    Votes: 111 30.7%

  • No - 2nd referendum and/or face saving fudge to let us slink back in feeling a bit fucking stupid

    Votes: 185 51.1%
  • Total voters
    362
SpackleFrog said:
Of course - but it's necessary to talk about how things could be.

Especially when things as they are are dire! ;)
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But they aren't how things could be though, because of how things are. Labour doesn't have any significant links with the working class anymore, this is true: but nor can they be wished into existence, or created with any real speed - it's the work of a generation. Corbyn could in theory 'discipline' the PLP, push for mandatory reselection and deselect key blairites: but that would only guarantee the split that has been threatened since he became leader, and the end to any real electoral chances for some time. The stalemate in the country, in the party and in parliament is real.
 
killer b said:
I'm talking about Labour as it is, rather than how I'd like it to be though.
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Me too, really. I'm just reflecting that Labour's failure to make any kind of progress on Brexit in part flows from the limits of what Labour is.
 
SpackleFrog said:
I disagree with this point. It's absolutely true that the Labour leadership have tried to balance between their coalition of interests (NuLab Remainers and working class/young people bearing the brunt austerity, with some mild crossover between the two) but I think it's important to note that they don't have to do that. Corbyn always had options - particularly immediately after the election he was expected to be destroyed at.

Genuinely democratising and transforming the Labour party was possible. It's not like he didn't have a mandate and the support of the membership. We'd be in a very different situation right now if he'd whipped votes and disciplined Blairites, brought in automatic re-selection and opened up the Labour party to the working class and the trade unions.

It's also not as if Corbyn couldn't have come out several times strongly in favour of Brexit, and put that in socialist terms. The *only* coherent political response to the threat of no deal is to radically transform our economy and decisively reject neoliberalism, privatisation and austerity. The majority of passionate Remainers were passionate because they were opposed to the nationalism and racism of UKIP/Tories. Promising a 'Brexit' with no new immigration controls, a Britain that accepts refugees, and linking that to an anti-austerity program would have had an appeal for many of them. It would be interesting as well to see how the media and the EU would respond to Corbyn going on the telly and saying well if no deal is a real possibility we'll have to nationalise everything and bring in capital controls in order to ensure the stability of the country.

I think this would have meant that he didn't have to placate the NuLab liberals any more, because he'd have other sources of support to draw strength from, not least a lot of disillusioned former Labour voters who aren't convinced he's different from Milliband.

I'm not saying he would ever have done it you understand - him and the rest of the Labour left wouldn't even believe it was possible. But if we fall into the trap of saying he didn't have a choice, then we fall into the trap of shit reheated social democratic rubbish.

"It doesn't have to be like this" is pretty much always a relevant slogan.
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Ah yes, if only Corbyn had ditched the centrists, pledged open borders and threatened to nationalise eerything - he'd be ahead in the polls instead of behind!.
 
Wilf said:
Me too, really. I'm just reflecting that Labour's failure to make any kind of progress on Brexit in part flows from the limits of what Labour is.
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ok - but you kept talking about things Labour should be doing, when the reasons they aren't able to do them aren't really a matter of choice.
 
sleaterkinney said:
Ah yes, if only Corbyn had ditched the centrists, pledged open borders and threatened to nationalise eerything - he'd be ahead in the polls instead of behind!.
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I didn't say open borders. But yes, I do think Labour would be ahead in the polls if he'd taken that approach.
 
killer b said:
But they aren't how things could be though, because of how things are. Labour doesn't have any significant links with the working class anymore, this is true: but nor can they be wished into existence, or created with any real speed - it's the work of a generation. Corbyn could in theory 'discipline' the PLP, push for mandatory reselection and deselect key blairites: but that would only guarantee the split that has been threatened since he became leader, and the end to any real electoral chances for some time. The stalemate in the country, in the party and in parliament is real.
Click to expand...

I don't think it needs to be the work of a generation. The political situation is fluid, and things can move very fast. I genuinely believe a bold approach would have won massive support and could even have led to the rebuilding of solid links to working class communities (which I accept could take a generation to consolidate). That might sound far fetched, but it's worth remembering how well Corbyn did in the GE despite the very weak watered down social democratic message he put out. We'd be fools to say it wasn't possible for him to win that election with a different approach.

This could be connected to the fact that I think a split with the Blairites would be a great thing of course, and would really boost Corbyn in the polls! Sure it would be a small party initially but one that had a real chance of building support across the Leave/Remain divide.
 
Sue said:
Personally, I think we should just put danny la rouge in charge of stuff in general.

(Sorry to make you blush but I agree with pretty much everything you say on this and you express it very clearly, fairly and reasonably* too.)

*Not sure what you're doing on urban with an attitude like that though.
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That’s very kind of you to say, but if offered for real, I think I’d have to decline in order to spend more time with my booze cabinet.
 
Just as an aside, never again will the UK be able to make snide comments about problems of governance and it's impact on people's lives in developing countries. What a shining example of enlightened Parliamentary excellence this has been! Government run by a Troika of Alan Partridge, John Bull and the Cat-in-the Bin Woman.
 
I'm sure there's a lesson here about her approach to getting a Brexit deal, or perhaps to what life in Britain will be like after we crash out with No Deal, but I'll leave you to suggest your own punch lines...

Theresa May 'scrapes the mould off jam'
As if Theresa May was not in enough of a jam over Brexit, she has now sparked a debate about how to handle actual jam - the kind that comes in jars. It comes after she reportedly told cabinet ministers she scrapes the mould off the fruit preserve rather than throw it away. The PM reportedly made the comments in a cabinet discussion on food waste.
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