Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[AnandLeo]

So basically can we have all the bits we do like such as tariff free trade but not the bits we don't like such as the grubby forrins coming here?
This is what Farage promised and Davis was asking for at Day 1 and the EU laughed its head off, we're back at the you can't leave the club and keep all the benefits of membership jag again. This record is not only worn but the stylus has gone through and is destroying the turntable.

Basically it may be the policy of both Labour and Tory. What I am suggesting is a pacified, rational compromise.

 

[chilango]

.So her nakedness or otherwise is beside the point, unless you are telling me that you decide whether or not to listen to people based on whether they have the right clothes on.

Spoiler: Only one post has really done this...

She was on Newsnight a week or two ago (talking about the middle east if I remember correctly). On that occasion she was clothed and I noted her dress style which is sort of Victorian-ish. This is part of the persona she's decided to present, .

 

[Wilf]

Happy to change my statement to enough clothes, as I already said. Rather than engaging in a pedantic debate about whether views on the right clothing someone should wear could be reasonably assumed to encompass the extent of that clothing and what is or isn't covered by it.

Oh, I think you chose your words very carefully. You wanted to make this into an issue of policing her choices, which it isn't. But my mistake for engaging.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Which debate specifically? Let's take the question of the idea that a 'Lexit' was, or is, feasible. I think you think that it was or is. I don't. I can't recall any arguments you've made that have really persuaded me to change my mind. My general impression of the arguments has been 'a bit hand-wavy'. As I said, it might be that I'm a moron, or it might be that your arguments weren't very good. Or both.

I've said repeatedly I'm not a 'Lexiter' and I don't agree with those who are talking about a 'Lexit'.

 

[sleaterkinney]

over to the Brexit Minister, who's had his first meeting with...

 

[sleaterkinney]

I've said repeatedly I'm not a 'Lexiter' and I don't agree with those who are talking about a 'Lexit'.

So you're a Remainer then?.

 

[SpackleFrog]

So you're a Remainer then?.

I think you know the answer to that question don't you?

How do you think it makes you look, acting like there are at most only 3 opinions on this topic?

 

[Pickman's model]

Happy to change my statement to enough clothes, as I already said. Rather than engaging in a pedantic debate about whether views on the right clothing someone should wear could be reasonably assumed to encompass the extent of that clothing and what is or isn't covered by it.

Perhaps you could simply change your statement to "I shall never comment on this or any other subject again" which would fill many urban hearts with gladness

 

[danny la rouge]

I was right that SpineyNorman ’s handy summary needed to be quoted every page. It’s a useful distillation of what I’ve been trying to say on this thread forever.

I don't see the point in supporting or opposing it. It's not my issue, both sides are my enemies and there's fuck all I can do to influence it.

How do you think it makes you look, acting like there are at most only 3 opinions on this topic?

There is another factor too, which Spiney’s quote hints at. As well as seeing polar, (tripartite?) homogenous positions, many on this thread seem to mistake commentary for preference. That saying where we’re at equals being happy with that.

I think it comes from the place where some people who wanted the UK to Remain in the EU think that because they really, really want it, it can still happen. Maybe they’re not used to what they want not happening, who knows. But you’d think that this close to the finishing line they’d be able to conceptualise the difference between what they had hoped for and what is actually happening.

 

[chilango]

I was right that SpineyNorman ’s handy summary needed to be quoted every page. It’s a useful distillation of what I’ve been trying to say on this thread forever.




There is another factor too, which Spiney’s quote hints at. As well as seeing polar, (tripartite?) homogenous positions, many on this thread seem to mistake commentary for preference. That saying where we’re at equals being happy with that.

I think it comes from the place where some people who wanted the UK to Remain in the EU think that because they really, really want it, it can still happen. Maybe they’re not used to what they want not happening, who knows. But you’d think that this close to the finishing line they’d be able to conceptualise the difference between what they had hoped for and what is actually happening.

...and I'd add. I'm sure many of us would contest any racist or right-wing arguments for Leave if they were posted. But they're not. We get some broadly Lexit posts which most of us share much common ground with even if we don't fully agree and a larger number of vociferous liberal arguments for Remain with which we have less in common.

 

[danny la rouge]

...and I'd add. I'm sure many of us would contest any racist or right-wing arguments for Leave if they were posted. But they're not. We get some broadly Lexit posts which most of us share much common ground with even if we don't fully agree and a larger number of vociferous liberal arguments for Remain with which we have less in common.

I’m nodding.

 

[Wilf]

...and I'd add. I'm sure many of us would contest any racist or right-wing arguments for Leave if they were posted. But they're not.

Whaaaat! You refuse to join up with people like Gina Miller, you refuse to sign up for the People's Vote, you won't wrap yourself in the EU flag? That can only mean you want EU nationals deported, lined up with farage, name all your kids after Jacob Rees Mogg ...>>> RINSE >>>>> REPEAT.

 

[chilango]

Whaaaat! You refuse to join up with people like Gina Miller, you refuse to sign up for the People's Vote, you won't wrap yourself in the EU flag? That can only mean you want EU nationals deported, lined up with farage, name all your kids after Jacob Rees Mogg ...>>> RINSE >>>>> REPEAT.

I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer SpineyNorman gave some moments ago.

don't see the point in supporting or opposing it. It's not my issue, both sides are my enemies and there's fuck all I can do to influence it.

 

[Wilf]

So you're a Remainer then?.

The process of elimination, the Sleaterkinney way:

 

[Wilf]

I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer SpineyNorman gave some moments ago.

I think we've created the new 'that would be an ecumenical matter'.

 

[mauvais]

I was right that SpineyNorman ’s handy summary needed to be quoted every page. It’s a useful distillation of what I’ve been trying to say on this thread forever.

There is another factor too, which Spiney’s quote hints at. As well as seeing polar, (tripartite?) homogenous positions, many on this thread seem to mistake commentary for preference. That saying where we’re at equals being happy with that.

I think it comes from the place where some people who wanted the UK to Remain in the EU think that because they really, really want it, it can still happen. Maybe they’re not used to what they want not happening, who knows. But you’d think that this close to the finishing line they’d be able to conceptualise the difference between what they had hoped for and what is actually happening.

I'd think you'd have clocked that almost exactly nothing has actually happened, so noone's views have had to be collapsed into the singularity yet. You can have whatever Brexit dream you like right up until you can't.

You can repeat it as much as you like but not-my-circus only goes so far too. The legitimacy of washing your hands of the issue isn't automatic protection against the consequences of it. If and when the dust settles and the victims of whatever outcome ask the question of what position did you take, then 'the proud none' isn't going to have any credibility either. Can you help us with this roof? Oh no mate, I can't change the weather can I. Well come and tell me your great ideas again once you've actually done something to shelter us from the effects of other people's disastrous scraps.

 

[tommers]

For people who don't care about it you don't half talk about it a lot.

 

[Pickman's model]

For people who don't care about it you don't half talk about it a lot.

It is the urban way

 

[danny la rouge]

I'd think you'd have clocked that almost exactly nothing has actually happened, so noone's views have had to be collapsed into the singularity yet. You can have whatever Brexit dream you like right up until you can't.

You really can’t. Well, you can delude yourself, but that’s not very useful.

The legitimacy of washing your hands of the issue isn't automatic protection against the consequences of it.

Absolutely nowhere have I said or implied that it does. I’m only too aware that the government is not acting in my interests. In fact I’ve said on this thread several times that they’re not. It seems to pass people by. Which is fine; I don’t expect everyone to memorise everyone else’s position. But it’d be good if people realised that there are a range of places people can be on this.

 

[danny la rouge]

For people who don't care about it you don't half talk about it a lot.

Who doesn’t care?

 

[chilango]

Quite.

One if the few things I do agree with in sleaterkinney's post is that we're all going to have to deal with the consequences of whatever happens.

 

[Wilf]

I'd think you'd have clocked that almost exactly nothing has actually happened, so noone's views have had to be collapsed into the singularity yet. You can have whatever Brexit dream you like right up until you can't.

You can repeat it as much as you like but not-my-circus only goes so far too. The legitimacy of washing your hands of the issue isn't automatic protection against the consequences of it. If and when the dust settles and the victims of whatever outcome ask the question of what position did you take, then 'the proud none' isn't going to have any credibility either. Can you help us with this roof? Oh no mate, I can't change the weather can I. Well come and tell me your great ideas again once you've actually done something to shelter us from the effects of other people's disastrous scraps.

My pure guess is there will be some kind of downturn and loss of jobs, though equally, there may be some kind of temporary Brexit bounce if an agreement is ultimately signed. Yeah, there may be a downturn, there may be a loss of jobs. Whoever is in government in a couple of years may also find it is easier to make things worse in all kinds of areas. Specific groups may be hit. But again, how to respond to that? Campaign for a 'people's re-vote', give our support to the neoliberal EU, line up, support one of the key institutions of capital? The EU isn't 'ours'. To fight for communities, fight for communities. To fight deportations, fight deportations etc. Don't keep asking me to line up with Juncker et al.

 

[Wilf]

Quite.

One if the few things I do agree with in sleaterkinney's post is that we're all going to have to deal with the consequences of whatever happens.

You said it half a sentence what I just spent a paragraph typing.

 

[mauvais]

You really can’t. Well, you can delude yourself, but that’s not very useful.

What outcome can you categorically call a delusion? At best you have an opinion on likelihood. Otherwise bet the house on something.

Absolutely nowhere have I said or implied that it does. I’m only too aware that the government is not acting in my interests. In fact I’ve said on this thread several times that they’re not. It seems to pass people by. Which is fine; I don’t expect everyone to memorise everyone else’s position. But it’d be good if people realised that there are a range of places people can be on this.

There is indeed a whole matrix of positions you could take. And surely noone would be so confused as to call you pro-government. These aren't problems. The problem as I see it is that persistent abstention equals irrelevance.

 

[Wilf]

What outcome can you categorically call a delusion? At best you have an opinion on likelihood. Otherwise bet the house on something.
There is indeed a whole matrix of positions you could take. And surely noone would be so confused as to call you pro-government. These aren't problems. The problem as I see it is that persistent abstention equals irrelevance.

But irrelevance on what? I'd say there were more positive outcomes in spending x weeks organising your workplace than organising petitions for a second referendum, pissing about in momentum to get Corbyn to commit himself to doing this, that or the other. Brexit will have an impact certainly, but like a lot of others on here, I'm resistant to committing to what amounts to a conscious self-delusion, thinking that the EU is on our side and running to its aid. It won't come to ours.

 

[mauvais]

My pure guess is there will be some kind of downturn and loss of jobs, though equally, there may be some kind of temporary Brexit bounce if an agreement is ultimately signed. Yeah, there may be a downturn, there may be a loss of jobs. Whoever is in government in a couple of years may also find it is easier to make things worse in all kinds of areas. Specific groups may be hit. But again, how to respond to that? Campaign for a 'people's re-vote', give our support to the neoliberal EU, line up, support one of the key institutions of capital? The EU isn't 'ours'. To fight for communities, fight for communities. To fight deportations, fight deportations etc. Don't keep asking me to line up with Juncker et al.

We've had a decade of austerity. At each and every turn you could have - correctly - argued that all significant political entities are the enemy in the fight against austerity. And for the most part that is what happened. What did it yield? The worst variant, the darkest timeline, not even the shit, mildly reformist hesitant-Guardian-lite differentiator. Fuck all. And no credible position afterwards. Either suck up the lesser evilism on your next door neighbour's behalf, or christ, actually blow something up.

 

[SpackleFrog]

You really can’t. Well, you can delude yourself, but that’s not very useful.

Absolutely nowhere have I said or implied that it does. I’m only too aware that the government is not acting in my interests. In fact I’ve said on this thread several times that they’re not. It seems to pass people by. Which is fine; I don’t expect everyone to memorise everyone else’s position. But it’d be good if people realised that there are a range of places people can be on this.

I want to agree with you and SpineyNorman and I mostly do. But where I think mauvais might have a point is on this general idea that there's liberal remainer politicians on one side and racist Tory Brexiters on the other, and that we cant do anything but sit and watch, which I think is actually quite dangerous.

Individually, sure, there isn't anything any of us can do. But collectively the working class can always impose its will on any situation. Brexit isn't any different in that sense from any other crisis.

I agree with Wilf here:

My pure guess is there will be some kind of downturn and loss of jobs, though equally, there may be some kind of temporary Brexit bounce if an agreement is ultimately signed. Yeah, there may be a downturn, there may be a loss of jobs. Whoever is in government in a couple of years may also find it is easier to make things worse in all kinds of areas. Specific groups may be hit. But again, how to respond to that? Campaign for a 'people's re-vote', give our support to the neoliberal EU, line up, support one of the key institutions of capital? The EU isn't 'ours'. To fight for communities, fight for communities. To fight deportations, fight deportations etc. Don't keep asking me to line up with Juncker et al.

Obviously when it comes to people who won't wanna know what we think unless we're also ardently committed to keeping the EU together, there's no point even engaging really. But we can say to people who are worried about deportations, we'll fight deportations with you. We can say to people worried about job losses we'll fight job losses with you. We can say to people worried about (oh God need a rule of three what else) chlorinated chicken that we'll fight against chlorinated chicken imports with you. I mean, I'm not so fussed about that last one but you know what I mean.

The situation is pretty unpredictable but we need to be clear about one thing: if the working class chooses to do so the working class can bring down this Tory govt.

 

[danny la rouge]

What outcome can you categorically call a delusion? At best you have an opinion on likelihood.

Come on, I was responding to you saying “You can have whatever Brexit dream you like right up until you can’t”, as I think you know. I can dream all I like about a Europe of federated workers' councils, but at 11.01pm on 29th March, that is not going to be one of the likely outcomes.

What there is going to be is whatever accommodation neoliberalism comes to with neoconservatism in Brexit Britain, which will require resistance. In the unlikely event that Brexit goes away, then we'll have the neoliberal EU, which will also require resistance.

So, I'm quite clear what needs to be done. I'm also fairly sure who it needs to be done against.

 

[SpackleFrog]

We've had a decade of austerity. At each and every turn you could have - correctly - argued that all significant political entities are the enemy in the fight against austerity. And for the most part that is what happened. What did it yield? The worst variant, the darkest timeline, not even the shit, mildly reformist hesitant-Guardian-lite differentiator. Fuck all. And no credible position afterwards. Either suck up the lesser evilism on your next door neighbour's behalf, or christ, actually blow something up.

Oh c'mon, that's nonsense. The choice is austerity or armed struggle?

Lesser evilism achieves nothing but allowing the benchmark for evil to shift over time.

 

[danny la rouge]

But where I think mauvais might have a point is on this general idea that there's liberal remainer politicians on one side and racist Tory Brexiters on the other, and that we cant do anything but sit and watch, which I think is actually quite dangerous.

Individually, sure, there isn't anything any of us can do. But collectively the working class can always impose its will on any situation. Brexit isn't any different in that sense from any other crisis.

This crossed with my last post. I think I've covered that, though.