Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[SpackleFrog]

i'd read it on the basis know thine enemy

And that would be fair enough but I don't think that's why our Bemused friend is citing it somehow.

 

[Pickman's model]

And that would be fair enough but I don't think that's why our Bemused friend is citing it somehow.

looking for stuff to put on a job application to work in hr no doubt

 

[BemusedbyLife]

Yeah, if you work in HR you spend your days justifying pay "restraint", redundancies and increased workload. Not unlike the EU I suppose... So yeah, there is something wrong with having a job in HR.

Now that's just personal prejudice showing there, the HR department where I work are a rather pleasant bunch who have certainly never done any of those thngs, I admit they keep losing my timesheet for my overtime but that hardly makes them part of some conspiracy to suppress the proletariat.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Now that's just personal prejudice showing there, the HR department where I work are a rather pleasant bunch who have certainly never done any of those thngs, I admit they keep losing my timesheet for my overtime but that hardly makes them part of some conspiracy to suppress the proletariat.

The only thing showing here is your ignorance.

 

[redsquirrel]

It's nothing to do with the fact with whether they are pleasant or not. It's to do with their role in the system.

They might be very nice people, like some bosses, like some landlords - doesn't mean that the role they are engaged in is not at odds with employees/renters.

 

[Winot]

No, I'm not saying it's not going to change, just that the no deal/WTO scenario isn't realistic. What you don't seem to understand is the politics of this - the EU is hardballing in an attempt to at least keep Britain in the single market and the Tories are posturing that they can pick and choose which bits they stay in. Neither side is accurately reflecting what will happen, but that isn't what it's about - exit isn't until 2019 and we'll likely have an election before then so it's irrelevant.

Bemused gave a specific example of the 'intertwining' - the car industry - which as I understand it relies on the UK being in the single market for production (as it currently stands) to work. You said that we have always been intertwined with the EU and that isn't going to change. But on the specific example, there is going to be a change because we are going to be leaving the single market. So how is production in the car industry going to work once we have left?

 

[SpackleFrog]

Bemused gave a specific example of the 'intertwining' - the car industry - which as I understand it relies on the UK being in the single market for production (as it currently stands) to work. You said that we have always been intertwined with the EU and that isn't going to change. But on the specific example, there is going to be a change because we are going to be leaving the single market. So how is production in the car industry going to work once we have left?

No, I said the British economy (not we, I'm not a boss, are you?) has always been intertwined with the EU. Who said we were leaving the single market?

 

[BemusedbyLife]

No, I said the British economy (not we, I'm not a boss, are you?) has always been intertwined with the EU. Who said we were leaving the single market?

Seriously? you do understand what is meant by the terms Hard Brexit and Soft Brexit ?

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Bemused gave a specific example of the 'intertwining' - the car industry - which as I understand it relies on the UK being in the single market for production (as it currently stands) to work. You said that we have always been intertwined with the EU and that isn't going to change. But on the specific example, there is going to be a change because we are going to be leaving the single market. So how is production in the car industry going to work once we have left?

Over a period of time something like this I guess. The UK has a large home market for cars so car makers are not going to leave. We export 80% of UK produced cars & import about same percentage into UK. If imported cars become more expensive then more home produced cars might be sold & UK makers will make more cars to suit the UK market as less will be exported. Components that are currently sourced from EU might be sourced more cheaply from new factories built in the UK or from rest of world cheaper markets.

 

[Winot]

No, I said the British economy (not we, I'm not a boss, are you?) has always been intertwined with the EU. Who said we were leaving the single market?

Well May has said we’re leaving and the EU has said no cherry picking so that’s looking most likely now (I would prefer to stay in). Yes we could stay in the EEA but right now that doesn’t look like it’s on the cards.

Do you want to leave the SM or not?

 

[redsquirrel]

Seriously? you do understand what is meant by the terms Hard Brexit and Soft Brexit ?

Does anybody? Soundbites that appeal to journalists. Throw a stone and get a different definition.

 

[BemusedbyLife]

Over a period of time something like this I guess. The UK has a large home market for cars. We export 80% of UK produced cars & import about same percentage into UK. If imported cars become more expensive then more home produced cars might be sold & UK makers will make more cars to suit the UK market as less will be exported. Components that are currently sourced from EU might be sourced more cheaply from new factories built in the UK or from rest of world cheaper markets.

This could happen or they could build new factories in Europe (Poland say where labour is cheaper) and accept the tariffs on exporting to the UK, you do realise that the largest British owned car manufacturer is Aston Martin who make a few thousand cars a year, all the bigger factories are foreign owned including several that were once British.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Seriously? you do understand what is meant by the terms Hard Brexit and Soft Brexit ?

I think those terms are meaningless and I'm sick of you using them. Why not chuck in a sunny side up Brexit as well? I'll repeat: who said we are leaving the single market?

Well May has said we’re leaving and the EU has said no cherry picking so that’s looking most likely now (I would prefer to stay in). Yes we could stay in the EEA but right now that doesn’t look like it’s on the cards.

Do you want to leave the SM or not?

A Tory politician who wants us to stay in says we're leaving and the EU who want us to stay in say no cherry picking? I'm totally convinced. As I said, it's a political process.

Yes, I want to leave the EU, leave the SM, and fight for a Socialist government. Not neccessarily in that order but there we go, this is where we're at.

 

[Winot]

I think those terms are meaningless and I'm sick of you using them. Why not chuck in a sunny side up Brexit as well? I'll repeat: who said we are leaving the single market?




A Tory politician who wants us to stay in says we're leaving and the EU who want us to stay in say no cherry picking? I'm totally convinced. As I said, it's a political process.

Yes, I want to leave the EU, leave the SM, and fight for a Socialist government. Not neccessarily in that order but there we go, this is where we're at.

OK fair enough. I guess we’ll have to see what happens.

But you asked for a positive reason for staying in the EU and you’ve been given one (OK strictly speaking it relates to the SM). You might disagree that it is a positive of course, but don’t wave your hands and say nothing will change if we leave the SM, because that’s bollocks.

 

[SpackleFrog]

OK fair enough. I guess we’ll have to see what happens.

But you asked for a positive reason for staying in the EU and you’ve been given one (OK strictly speaking it relates to the SM). You might disagree that it is a positive of course, but don’t wave your hands and say nothing will change if we leave the SM, because that’s bollocks.

How is that a positive? All you're doing is stating that there will be economic collapse if we leave, which is a bit hard for people to understand because the economy has already collapsed as far as the vast majority of people understand it.

 

[Winot]

How is that a positive? All you're doing is stating that there will be economic collapse if we leave, which is a bit hard for people to understand because the economy has already collapsed as far as the vast majority of people understand it.

If the UK car industry collapses then the number of people struggling will increase. And if you think that’s a price worth paying as a staging post to a socialist utopia then you’re going to have to convince those people that lose their jobs that a socialist utopia really is around the corner. But you’re going to be in danger of sounding like Norman Lamont on inflation.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

At the risk of sounding like a swivel eyed tory hard brexiteer loon. The UK has a massive home market for cars. Foreign companies put factories where there is a market for their product.

 

[BemusedbyLife]

How is that a positive? All you're doing is stating that there will be economic collapse if we leave, which is a bit hard for people to understand because the economy has already collapsed as far as the vast majority of people understand it.

Ah thank you that explains the mob of starving children I had to fight my way through heading for the bus stop tonight

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

all the bigger factories are foreign owned including several that were once British.

This is always a lol from the remain, waive their baguettes down the Dilly, yet fall back on some kind of jingoism when it comes to ownership of businesses. It really makes no difference if the owner of a company is British or not.

 

[BemusedbyLife]

At the risk of sounding like a swivel eyed tory hard brexiteer loon. The UK is a massive home market for cars. Foreign companies go where there is a market for their product.

Indeed they do but one of the reasons that the EU (including the UK) has so much car production is that it uses its economic clout to defend that market, indeed the Toyota factory a few miles down the road from where I currently sit came to the UK entirely on that basis. A UK alone is a market 1/8th the size of that and has correspondingly less weight. Car and part manufacturers will build factories in the UK if that is the more profitable route otherwise it may just be cheaper to build the cars somewhere else (not necessarily the EU) and ship them here and pay the tariffs (if any)
The UK is a big market yes but the UK in the EU is a far bigger one.
And the car industry isn't unique in this regards, Airbus wings are built in the UK and then flown to France to be assembled, do you really think British Aerospace won't follow the profit trail?
or Snecma will not seize this chance to try and elbow out Rolls-Royce who respond by sending more work to their plant in Germany?
I don't really give a shit about corporate profits but this too easily translates into job losses.

 

[mauvais]

At the risk of sounding like a swivel eyed tory hard brexiteer loon. The UK has a massive home market for cars. Foreign companies put factories where there is a market for their product.

That's why they're in the EU. Most foreign marque cars have an EU production line even if that represents duplication of production in their home country - and this isn't exclusive to the EU, e.g. BMWs and Japanese cars made in the US.

However, it doesn't necessarily scale down to Britain. For example it's only because of the relative low cost and sharing the requirement with other rich countries that we continue to get RHD variants.

Without a trade deal of some kind that maintains parity with what we currently have, the outlook would be pretty bleak for UK car manufacturing.

 

[BemusedbyLife]

This is always a lol from the remain, waive their baguettes down the Dilly, yet fall back on some kind of jingoism when it comes to ownership of businesses. It really makes no difference if the owner of a company is British or not.

Does if they decide to ship the plant (and associated jobs) abroad there is enough of that happening now, do yout think it won't get worse if we get less competitive against European based plants?

 

[SpackleFrog]

If the UK car industry collapses then the number of people struggling will increase. And if you think that’s a price worth paying as a staging post to a socialist utopia then you’re going to have to convince those people that lose their jobs that a socialist utopia really is around the corner. But you’re going to be in danger of sounding like Norman Lamont on inflation.

The UK car industry collapsed a long time ago. But if Ford threatens to move a gearbox plant somewhere or whatever, the correct response is to mobilise to nationalise that plant and protect the jobs, not fall over ourselves begging Ford to stay.

There is no future for industry in Britain on the basis of capitalism but there can be on the basis of a Socialist transformation of the economy.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Ah thank you that explains the mob of starving children I had to fight my way through heading for the bus stop tonight

Cunt. Do you think that's funny when child poverty is at a record high?

 

[BemusedbyLife]

Cunt. Do you think that's funny when child poverty is at a record high?

I don't think child poverty is funny at all but "your most people think the economy has collapsed already" really was too stupid to let slide

 

[BemusedbyLife]

The UK car industry collapsed a long time ago. But if Ford threatens to move a gearbox plant somewhere or whatever, the correct response is to mobilise to nationalise that plant and protect the jobs, not fall over ourselves begging Ford to stay.

There is no future for industry in Britain on the basis of capitalism but there can be on the basis of a Socialist transformation of the economy.

Right so we nationalise the plant and then what build gearboxes and pile them up in

The UK car industry collapsed a long time ago. But if Ford threatens to move a gearbox plant somewhere or whatever, the correct response is to mobilise to nationalise that plant and protect the jobs, not fall over ourselves begging Ford to stay.

There is no future for industry in Britain on the basis of capitalism but there can be on the basis of a Socialist transformation of the economy.

So we nationalise the gearbox plant at Dagenham, then what? keep making gearboxes and pile them up in the fields next to it?

 

[mauvais]

The UK car industry collapsed a long time ago. But if Ford threatens to move a gearbox plant somewhere or whatever, the correct response is to mobilise to nationalise that plant and protect the jobs, not fall over ourselves begging Ford to stay.

There is no future for industry in Britain on the basis of capitalism but there can be on the basis of a Socialist transformation of the economy.

The UK car industry is doing very well, one of the few manufacturing successes, and therefore this is clueless balls.

 

[BemusedbyLife]

Sorry clicked post too early there

 

[SpackleFrog]

I don't think child poverty is funny at all but "your most people think the economy has collapsed already" really was too stupid to let slide

For most people, horrific levels of child poverty is what economic collapse looks like. Clearly not for you though.

 

[SpackleFrog]

The UK car industry is doing very well, one of the few manufacturing successes, and therefore this is clueless balls.

Oh aye? On what basis?