Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[DotCommunist]

Ha, just you wait until conference slightly adjusts the thresholds for reselection. Then you'll see the full power of zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Over 150 Brexit-related motions submitted to Labour ahead of annual conference

 

[littlebabyjesus]

last I heard the line was not silence but more 'we aren't in power, if we were..well nothing is off the table. Lets have a GE'

what you mean by silence is of course what supine means by lack of leadership. They won't unequivocally back a second reff which is what you both want. Its fine to say 'this party is not doing what I want' but to frame it as silence or a lack of leadership (from the party OUT of power no less) isn't right either imo.

I'll give you a concrete example. Northern Ireland. Martin McGuinness warned as soon as the referendum was announced that exactly the problem that is the problem now would be a problem. What is Corbyn's response to this? What is his opinion of this question? It's not like he hasn't had time to come up with an answer - McGuinesss detailed the question back in 2015.

 

[Supine]

Over 150 Brexit-related motions submitted to Labour ahead of annual conference

emu position can only last so long! Could be an interesting conference

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

Over 150 Brexit-related motions submitted to Labour ahead of annual conference

Let's see what makes it to a substantive vote

 

[mojo pixy]

I don't think communists have that much of a plan

Well actually...

 

[DotCommunist]

I never thought I'd say it but the labour party conference this year will be fascinating.


I'll just fetch my anorak....

 

[Mr Moose]

if they'd backed remain they'd now be looking like the rest of europes 'social democrats', scraping by. Pasokified.

Only a few people give a shit about the EU. Stop playing that ball and play the one about how stuff moves around after next April, when no agreements are in place for the transport of goods, let alone how every other regulated thing works, not just with the EU, but with every other country we trade with under its auspices.

We know the EU is bad, but what’s going to keep wheels turning? There is a whiff of ‘let them eat cake’ about the arguments which just end in a reminder of the EU’s ills.

 

[DotCommunist]

Only a few people give a shit about the EU. Stop playing that ball and play the one about how stuff moves around after next April, when no agreements are in place for the transport of goods, let alone how every other regulated thing works, not just with the EU, but with every other country we trade with under its auspices.

We know the EU is bad, but what’s going to keep wheels turning? There is a whiff of ‘let them eat cake’ about the arguments which just end in a reminder of the EU’s ills.

sorry, whats that have to do with what you quoted? I made the observation that had labour backed remain they'd have seen a vote collapse similar to that of the other european post war social democratic parties. Of course you can't prove a counterfactual etc but look what cost them scotland...

 

[Mr Moose]

sorry, whats that have to do with what you quoted? I made the observation that had labour backed remain they'd have seen a vote collapse similar to that of the other european post war social democratic parties. Of course you can't prove a counterfactual etc but look what cost them scotland...

I don’t disagree about Labour. They could not back Remain.

It’s the ending of any argument about the substance of what to do with a reminder of the EU’s evil rather than a proposal that I’m referring to. Maybe wrongly in the case of your post, but the question is there anyway.

 

[William of Walworth]

Only a few people give a shit about the EU.

I agree. Europe, the EU, Brexit v Remain are all insanely boring subjects

That's around 89.6%** of the problem with all this

**made-up but plausible statistic ...

Not sure why I've been on this thread at all really , except out of a wish for the Tories to collapse in violent splits and electoral disaster for ever

 

[paolo]

Before Cameron made the referendum pledge, the EU was not on the British public’s radar. It was dwarfed by issues including housing and the NHS. The economist had a timeline graph, showing how it only became an issue for people after the Tory’s had declared it so.

*sigh*

 

[Kaka Tim]

May has driven the whole brexit process into a ditch. Everybody knew her chequers proposals would be rejected by the EU - in fact its been clear that what would happen since she outlined the governments position two years ago. They have achieved absolutely nothing in that time.
Its bizarre - shes fucked, she has no authority but her party wont ditch her because nobody wants to take over the titanic.
I think 2nd referendum will happen - its that or crashing out - and nobody with any influence bar a few tory lunatics want that.

 

[paolo]

Will May call it? No sign yet.

And if she gets booted, strong chance the replacement will be happy to drive over the cliff.

Chance of an election *and* Labour offering a vote? Time is running out for those two things to happen.

The picture could, of course, be completely different in a few weeks. Fuck knows where all this will end up.

 

[Streathamite]

After today, one thing must at last be clear to May: it really is BINO, or no deal
The former would cause WW3 to break out in the Tory party, the latter would cause utter catastrophe
e2a: But so many people were trying to tell her this, two whole years ago, The past 2 years have been utterly insane

 

[gosub]

Why should Corbyn say anything? May will not listen to him, so it can only be turned against him. All thy can do is be there to pick up the pieces of whatever is left when the Tories have finished uniting their party.

tbf He is staying stuff and its honourable. (as of tonight still respecting the plebicite.) His problem is most of the Unions, which came out for remain, are now pushing for a second referendum....Possibly the most politically charged conference season in living memory.

 

[Kaka Tim]

I think may will fail to get any sort of deal through the commons and will then resign leaving the commons to vote for a suspension of A50 and a second referendum rather than allow a no deal crash out to happen.
Labour could back it on the basis of "the tories fucked this up so badly this is now the only way to avoid a disaster". I mean - who the fuck wants BINO? Its the same as where we were pre referendum but more shit.
Post imperial hubris meets inevitable humiliation as limits of the UK's power and influence are cruelly exposed - Suez redux.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

^^I actually agree with both those positions, confusingly.

Same same, I don’t think it’s all that confusing it’s the perils of trying your damndest to be a “non-affiliated radical”
Unfortunately though much of the establishment who have been banging on about “facts” now being out there when they weren’t previously- seriously which new FACTS have been unveiled since 2016, it’s just ramped up threats right? - and a “people’s vote” are really just covering up the fact they’ve tried to terrify people into changing their minds cause they didn’t accept the result *The People* gave the first time around. Which is why many people view a second ref as not being democratic. #peoplesvote always reads to me like a total fucking pisstake, it’s like they don’t care how patronising they are being, we are monkeys, thick as fuck and we will never notice the face slapping irony of that hashtag. Respect out the window entirely. Oh just forget the last two years - LOL! SOZ!- we accept that the second vote will be a #peoplesvote. They’ll never tell you the second ref will be fucking advisory as well(the cornerstone of their argument, it was advisory and didn’t count) , heavily implying it won’t be suits them just fine.
So yeah, complicated situation. Of course any clear vote is by definition. democratic but if you offer it 4 times til you get your desired result then that adds a bit more context and it’s not so simple to argue either way . Bah!

 

[gosub]

Same same, I don’t think it’s all that confusing it’s the perils of trying your damndest to be a “non-affiliated radical”
Unfortunately though much of the establishment who have been banging on about “facts” now being out there when they weren’t previously- seriously which new FACTS have been unveiled since 2016, it’s just ramped up threats right? - and a “people’s vote” are really just covering up the fact they’ve tried to terrify people into changing their minds cause they didn’t accept the result *The People* gave the first time around. Which is why many people view a second ref as not being democratic. #peoplesvote always reads to me like a total fucking pisstake, it’s like they don’t care how patronising they are being, we are monkeys, thick as fuck and we will never notice the face slapping irony of that hashtag. Respect out the window entirely. Oh just forget the last two years - LOL! SOZ!- we accept that the second vote will be a #peoplesvote. They’ll never tell you the second ref will be fucking advisory as well(the cornerstone of their argument, it was advisory and didn’t count) , heavily implying it won’t be suits them just fine.
So yeah, complicated situation. Of course any clear vote is by definition. democratic but if you offer it 4 times til you get your desired result then that adds a bit more context and it’s not so simple to argue either way . Bah!

If I could double like for saying its a complicated situation I would. Can you imagine this level discussion on facebook?

 

[Wolveryeti]

Which thing is it you think the EU embodies sorry? Liberalisation or regulation?

I don't think it embodies either - but they are not necessarily opposed concepts. A good example being the common external tariffs of the customs union (a set of regs) which has liberalised trade within the bloc by being able to do away with most of its internal customs checks.

 

[binka]

May has driven the whole brexit process into a ditch. Everybody knew her chequers proposals would be rejected by the EU - in fact its been clear that what would happen since she outlined the governments position two years ago. They have achieved absolutely nothing in that time.
Its bizarre - shes fucked, she has no authority but her party wont ditch her because nobody wants to take over the titanic.
I think 2nd referendum will happen - its that or crashing out - and nobody with any influence bar a few tory lunatics want that.

Well I suppose if your plan all along was to have a second referendum... This theory does of course mean that May would have to be one of the shrewdest, most Machiavellian operators in British political history...

 

[Mr Moose]

I agree. Europe, the EU, Brexit v Remain are all insanely boring subjects

That's around 89.6%** of the problem with all this

**made-up but plausible statistic ...

Not sure why I've been on this thread at all really , except out of a wish for the Tories to collapse in violent splits and electoral disaster for ever

What I mean is and in response to the constant refrain that those who don’t want to leave must love the evil EU/tolerate its crimes, only a few really do. It’s Government after all.

The trouble is we leave, we still have Government and we still have elites and they are poised to clean up even further if we are pushed into a recession. If the Tories stay in they will open Britain up to every piece of scum with cash to invest who hasn’t already bought 10 flats.

Even worse, our own Govt thinks it is necessary to stockpile medicines. No deal would reduce the capacity to move goods in and out severely. It is exceptionalism to not worry about it. It’s let them eat cake.

We haven’t weakened the EU, we just appear to be about to up the dial on precarcity.

 

[kabbes]

a “people’s vote” [is] really just covering up the fact they’ve tried to terrify people into changing their minds cause they didn’t accept the result *The People* gave the first time around.

Right. This is it really — why I feel queasy about it. If they’d done a good job to date then I’d have no problem — or little problem — with a second vote. But it feels like a stitch up. Do the worst job possible and then claim it can’t be done. That’s not reasonable.

 

[Kaka Tim]

various members of the government blustering today - the EU has to do this, the EU has to understand ... when the EU doesn't have to do anything apart from role its eyes. THe government is sticking to its plan - the one that has just been comprehensively rejected by every single other member of the EU.
They have all the cards, preservation of the central tenants is more important to them than keeping the UK in the EU. None of this is a revelation and was entirely predictable. WTF did they think was going to happen? Was this self delusion? Or the result of May continually kicking the can down the road hoping that something would come up before the road ran out?

 

[Supine]

I can see the end of that road for her. Think Thelma & Louise cliff scene

 

[Pickman's model]

I can see the end of that road for her. Think Thelma & Louise cliff scene

I'm thinking more of the end of the young ones as you can get more people in a double-decker

 

[gosub]

Right. This is it really — why I feel queasy about it. If they’d done a good job to date then I’d have no problem — or little problem — with a second vote. But it feels like a stitch up. Do the worst job possible and then claim it can’t be done. That’s not reasonable.

its not the terrify bit, there are some real concerns, it was the abusive contempt and zero effort to move to a compromise in light of the result

 

[Pickman's model]

various members of the government blustering today - the EU has to do this, the EU has to understand ... when the EU doesn't have to do anything apart from role its eyes. THe government is sticking to its plan - the one that has just been comprehensively rejected by every single other member of the EU.
They have all the cards, preservation of the central tenants is more important to them than keeping the UK in the EU. None of this is a revelation and was entirely predictable. WTF did they think was going to happen? Was this self delusion? Or the result of May continually kicking the can down the road hoping that something would come up before the road ran out?

She couldn't kick a can down the road without fucking it up

 

[Ranbay]

Chequers goes pop.

 

[danny la rouge]

Right. This is it really — why I feel queasy about it. If they’d done a good job to date then I’d have no problem — or little problem — with a second vote. But it feels like a stitch up. Do the worst job possible and then claim it can’t be done. That’s not reasonable.

Indeed. I actually don’t think having a referendum on the deal - ie “right, you asked us to do a deal, is this the sort of deal you had in mind?” - is an unreasonable proposition in theory.

I just think it is in the circumstances.

 

[Crispy]

Right. This is it really — why I feel queasy about it. If they’d done a good job to date then I’d have no problem — or little problem — with a second vote. But it feels like a stitch up. Do the worst job possible and then claim it can’t be done. That’s not reasonable.

Malice or stupidity though?