Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[gosub]

Like between the north & the republic in Ireland?

Like between my front garden & the next-door's front garden?

Two sides, but no hard border-lines.

That's an idea. A shrubbery, or maybe some pampas grass

 

[not-bono-ever]

If one is hard then it is a hard border effectively

 

[gosub]

If one is hard then it is a hard border effectively

You can get some nasty paper cuts from pampas grass I grant you

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

If one is hard then it is a hard border effectively

Does it get you that excited?

 

[not-bono-ever]

I am trying to add something constructive to the worst thread since that one about people you didn’t sleep with got bumped from the grave

 

[not-bono-ever]

I vowed I would not confirm back to this thread but I am drawn to it like a Labrador back to its own sick

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I am trying to add something constructive to the worst thread since that one about people you didn’t sleep with got bumped from the grave

Fair enough. As I keep repeating, the UK will not impose a hard border. The EU says that they might impose one, philosophical and his moronic ilk say this is what leave voters wanted and must sort out. If Junker states that if the UK leaves the EU he’ll reform his dad’s army unit and take up where they left off, would that be leave voters fault too?

 

[DexterTCN]

This is just not true though, there is a border and it is policed...

Can you prove this by showing it on street view, cheers.

It would be handy to see what you're talking about.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Can you prove this by showing it on street view, cheers.

It would be handy to see what you're talking about.

 

[DexterTCN]

Any time you're ready. It would be informative to =see what you mean.

Just post a photo-link to a policed border, as you claimed in #9069, on street view. Here's a link to a home page to help.

mapstreetview.com

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Any time you're ready. It would be informative to =see what you mean.

Just post a photo-link to a policed border, as you claimed in #9069, on street view. Here's a link to a home page to help.

mapstreetview.com

Can you fucking read???

Soft border.

What are you expecting, gun towers?


I can’t see it on Streetview, so it’s not a thing.

What a shit level of thought you have.

Embarrassing even by your standards.

 

[teqniq]

Trump's visit marks the start of shock doctrine Brexit

 

[free spirit]

Which rules specify how a border must be policed?

WTO rules on trading without discrimination / most favoured nation status would require the EU to impose the same border controls on the UK as they impose on every non Single Market / Customs Union country. Failure to do so would result in every other none EU country being able to demand the exact same treatment.

The same rules would require the UK to impose the same level of external border controls on EU countries as they would on any other country they're not in a free trade area with.

The ultra neoliberal right may argue that the UK isn't required to impose any form of a border, because we can opt to have zero border checks or tariffs for everyone, which is true, but as no country would be required to reciprocate that arrangement it would mean we lost all bargaining rights for trade agreements and just became a country that can be flooded with cheap low quality imports with no say on anything, and the rapid end of our manufacturing base.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

WTO rules on trading without discrimination / most favoured nation status would require the EU to impose the same border controls on the UK as they impose on every non Single Market / Customs Union country. Failure to do so would result in every other none EU country being able to demand the exact same treatment.

The same rules would require the UK to impose the same level of external border controls on EU countries as they would on any other country they're not in a free trade area with.

The ultra neoliberal right may argue that the UK isn't required to impose any form of a border, because we can opt to have zero border checks or tariffs for everyone, which is true, but as no country would be required to reciprocate that arrangement it would mean we lost all bargaining rights for trade agreements and just became a country that can be flooded with cheap low quality imports with no say on anything, and the rapid end of our manufacturing base.

You have been misled.

WTO favoured nation rules apply where there is no specific deal/treaty, not necessarily free trade. The UK and Eire have a deal that is feck all to do with the EU.

 

[free spirit]

You have been misled.

WTO favoured nation rules apply where there is no specific deal/treaty.

yes, is that not the situation being discussed?

Clearly if we stayed in the Single Market or Customs Union then there'd be no requirement for a border any harder than applies to other members, but if we leave those agreements as well as the EU* then the border would need to be the same as applies to all other non-members.


*unless we're able to negotiate and agree an entirely new WTO approved FTA or Customs Union arrangement in the next 9 months, which would be an incredible diplomatic achievement.

 

[philosophical]

Is there a border or not?

You say not, yet there is one, it is known as a soft border and UK and EU citizens can cross freely as it is part of the common travel area, (non-Irish or British EU citizens must pass a hard border to enter the common travel area from the rest of the EU or non-EU areas.

The EU wishes to impose a hard border in the event of crash-out. The UK has stated that it will not impose a hard border under any circumstances, it will keep the soft border that currently exists. Remainers like that philosophical berk keep harping on about the border as if it will be the end of days. Perhaps it will lead to a resurgence of sectarian violence if the EU erects a hard border, go lobby Brussels about it. The UK is leaving the EU is all, the UK will not impose a hard border between it and Eire.

Is there a border or not?

You say not, yet there is one, it is known as a soft border and UK and EU citizens can cross freely as it is part of the common travel area, (non-Irish or British EU citizens must pass a hard border to enter the common travel area from the rest of the EU or non-EU areas.

The EU wishes to impose a hard border in the event of crash-out. The UK has stated that it will not impose a hard border under any circumstances, it will keep the soft border that currently exists. Remainers like that philosophical berk keep harping on about the border as if it will be the end of days. Perhaps it will lead to a resurgence of sectarian violence if the EU erects a hard border, go lobby Brussels about it. The UK is leaving the EU is all, the UK will not impose a hard border between it and Eire.

Berk here, you're wrong. I keep harping on about how the border is going to operate in a practical sense.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

*unless we're able to negotiate and agree an entirely new WTO approved FTA or Customs Union arrangement in the next 9 months, which would be an incredible diplomatic achievement.

That is what is proposed, after the transition that stretches to 2020, so surely not beyond the wit of even the dolts running tings.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Berk here, you're wrong. I keep harping on about how the border is going to operate in a practical sense.

Tell us how it will work. You voted remain, for the EU, the only people talking about imposing a hard border, so it is up to you to sort it. You have done so at the eastern edge of the EU to keep out brown people, will you take the same racist line here? Answers please.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Can you fucking read???

Don't bother, mate, he's a complete dickhead, devoid of any critical thinking skills.

 

[free spirit]

That is what is proposed, after the transition that stretches to 2020, so surely not beyond the wit of even the dolts running tings.

hmm, well I'm now up to page 30 of the government's new document. Saturday's used to be more fun than this.

 

[philosophical]

Tell us how it will work. You voted remain, for the EU, the only people talking about imposing a hard border, so it is up to you to sort it. You have done so at the eastern edge of the EU to keep out brown people, will you take the same racist line here? Answers please.

One reason for voting remain was not to be a leave voter and an ally to racists like Boris (picanninies with watermelon smiles) Johnson. I voted against Farage, Gove, Redwood, the racist media, the Tory establishment, the anti immigrants/foreigners in the UK. I don't want their kind of racism here.

I don't know if you were a leave voter, but that is the company you keep if you were.

A consequence of voting remain was that I lost.

Whatever my views and tiny influence I might have had on EU policy was wiped out by the leave vote. The EU problems are now their problems the brexit victory saw to that.

The brexit victory has also seen to a separation from the EU by the UK. The UK has by the brexit vote chosen to be over here, and the EU over there, and by dint of that choice (you know, the choice to separate) it is the UK that has ushered in the inevitable hard border that comes with one lot being over there, and another lot being over here. The clue is in the word 'over', with two different entities there is something in between to distinguish 'there and here'. Something that people and things cross over.

You say the EU are the only people talking about a hard border, I say the brexit vote itself shouted about it, whatever politicians say they do or don't want.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

One reason for voting remain was not to be a leave voter and an ally to racists like Boris (picanninies with watermelon smiles) Johnson. I voted against Farage, Gove, Redwood, the racist media, the Tory establishment, the anti immigrants/foreigners in the UK. I don't want their kind of racism here.

I don't know if you were a leave voter, but that is the company you keep if you were.

Jesus. Back to all leave voters are racists, how did that pan out for you last time?

I am glad you acknowledge that you are a berk. You understand the etymology of the word, yeah? Cos it really is very fitting for you.

 

[philosophical]

Jesus. Back to all leave voters are racists, how did that pan out for you last time?

I am glad you acknowledge that you are a berk. You understand the etymology of the word, yeah? Cos it really is very fitting for you.

No. Read back, I responded to your post, your post when you resurrected racism.
It is a flag YOU waved about in your post today at 4.55.
Maybe you played the race card because understanding that the UK ushered in a border by voting brexit is beyond you. So you try to change the conversation.

 

[free spirit]

That is what is proposed, after the transition that stretches to 2020, so surely not beyond the wit of even the dolts running tings.

So, as far as I can make out the Government position now is that they basically want to leave the single market, but negotiate a free trade agreement that basically is the single market, but without freedom of movement.

Except that this is a sleight of hand, as elsewhere in the document it talks about companies being able to move staff in and out of the UK. This means that possibly the worst element of EU arrangement could be retained - the posted agency worker situation (where we apply the Swedish derogation) where agencies from one country can supply staff into the UK to work but be paid at the wage of their host country not the UK rates they should be paid.

So basically we're going to be leaving the single market in order to negotiate a new FTA that's almost identical to the single market, with the sole motivation that freedom of movement will end, except it won't actually end, it will just be something that only multinational companies can facilitate (other than professionals who it wants to also have freedom of movement for work).

So it's Brexit in Name Only, making the entire exercise a pointless con. Best case scenario little changes but everything gets more complicated, and we end up with even more gangs of EU agency workers undercutting local pay levels while the agencies cream even more profit off the top as it will be their only way of getting to work in the UK.

WTF is the point in all of this?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

WTF is the point in all of this?

Bringing harmony and unity to the Conservative Party.

Going well so far

 

[free spirit]

ps the section I'm referring to that I think will allow the posted agency workers situation to continue is this one...

As is the case with non-EU countries with whom the UK has a trading agreement, the UK also wants to agree reciprocal provisions on intra-corporate transfers that allow UK and EU-based companies to train staff, move them between offices and plants and to deploy expertise where it is needed, based on existing arrangements with non-EU countries. The UK will also discuss how to facilitate temporary mobility of scientists and researchers, self-employed professionals, employees providing services, as well as investors.

I wasn't entirely sure if this did mean what I think it means, so here's the relevant section from the EU-South Korea FTA...

(d) contractual service suppliers means natural persons employed by a juridical person of a Party which has no establishment in the territory of the other Party and which has concluded a bona fide contract to supply services with a final consumer in the latter Party requiring the presence on a temporary basis of its employees in that Party in order to fulfil the contract to provide services (24); and

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:L:2011:127:FULL&from=EN

So yes, it does allow for companies to win a contract to supply services within another country to then bring in their workers to undertake that contract.

 

[free spirit]

why the fuck are we leaving the EU rather than simply cancelling the Swedish Derogation opt out from the posted agency workers directive - the opt out that specifically allows agency workers to be paid at the going rate in the country of origin rather than having to be paid at the local rate?

That's the main thing that the big farming and industrial areas that have been impacted by this type of EU migration voted to leave to stop, but it is something the UK government has had the power to prevent for a decade, but has opted not to implement (an opt out the Labour specifically negotiated and voted for and implemented).

So we'll end up leaving the EU, but they'll still be getting fucked over as will the EU workers.

 

[Poi E]

but as no country would be required to reciprocate that arrangement it would mean we lost all bargaining rights for trade agreements and just became a country that can be flooded with cheap low quality imports with no say on anything, and the rapid end of our manufacturing base.

Otherwise known as the New Zealand model.

 

[agricola]

THE CENTRE BURSTS FORTH:

Britain’s former trade commissioner in Brussels, Lord Mandelson, is making common cause with hardline anti-EU Tories, saying that Theresa May’s latest Brexit blueprint would lead to “national humiliation” and leave the country in a worse position than if it turned its back on the entire European economic system.

In an extraordinary intervention that shows that even the most ardent Remainers in parliament find the plans unacceptable, Labour peer Mandelson says they would deliver “the polar opposite of taking back control”, and would mean “the EU would ultimately call the shots, not just now but indefinitely”.

 

[sleaterkinney]

.

Theresa May: No hard border after Brexit

Show me the bit of international law that prohibits a soft border between the UK and Eire. Or admit you're making stuff up to boost your position.

Ok, they did, but that's just more cakeism.

It's WTO rules:
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