Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[Bahnhof Strasse]

there is already an identity check at the ferry ports - you can no more just 'walk on' than you can walk on an Easyjet flight from Bristol to Glasgow -and non-EU passport holders have to show their visas (assuming their nationality needs one) to enter the UK (obviously they are already in the UK, but given the absence of a border on on the border, that is where the check is done).

Current situation is one I come across frequently; Russian has UK visa, wants to go to Eire, would need an Eire visa for that. I recommend going London-Belfast and then train to Dublin. However on the train from Belfast to Dublin there are often checks and anyone without the correct paperwork will be detained to prove they are eligible to enter Eire. And vice versa.

Why would that situation need to change?

The UK government is not fussed about EU passport holders walking in to the UK, they'll be waived in anyway. What they are concerned about is EU passport holders coming to the UK and settling down with a job here, with no checks to the numbers doing so. That's what they mean when they talk of ending free movement of people.

 

[philosophical]

no, i'm saying that the UK will set up land border control on the NI-Irish border only after the EU-Ireland does. the original UK proposal was that the Irish Authorities at the Irish ports of entry could, on the UK's behalf, use UK immigration/customs rules (in addition to their own) to remove the neccessity of a UK/Irish border on the, err.. border - not dissimilar in practice to the current arrangement in Ireland where those travelling to the US go through US customs and Immigration in Ireland before they get on the plane. Ireland and the EU said no...

Yes I have heard about that.

My brother lives in Ballycasey near Shannon Airport, and even thought I have only been to the USA for a short NYC four day city break, the immigration queue in New York was appalling. If I go again it will definitely be a trip to Shannon, and do all the checks before the flight in order to stroll off at the other end. So you're right, except that in Shannon I believe it is American people who do the checks rather than Irish people doing it for them (not 100% certain about that).

I am also aware that one proposal was that the Irish authorities did the immigration checks for the UK authorities post brexit, presumably at a cost. However if an EU citizen passed all the checks the ROI demands to enter Ireland, there would be an assumption that the UK would be cool with those people too, but I can't see what there is in place under that system for loads of EU citizens to arrive in Ireland, then walk or travel to the UK and survive in the gig economy or something like that.

I can only see that being stopped by a shedload of workplace checks where employees have to do the job of the immigration service or get a huge fine.

 

[sleaterkinney]

you have, i trust, noticed the big blue wobbly thing that seperates the UK from the European continent? that serves quite well as a border,


there is already an identity check at the ferry ports - you can no more just 'walk on' than you can walk on an Easyjet flight from Bristol to Glasgow -and non-EU passport holders have to show their visas (assuming their nationality needs one) to enter the UK (obviously they are already in the UK, but given the absence of a border on on the border, that is where the check is done).

But you are missing the point, if they are in NI, then they are already in the UK.

 

[kebabking]

..I can only see that being stopped by a shedload of workplace checks where employees have to do the job of the immigration service or get a huge fine.

you mean in exactly the same was as happens now for non-EU citizens?

 

[sleaterkinney]

you mean in exactly the same was as happens now for non-EU citizens?

You are proposing a border in the Irish sea, no?

 

[kebabking]

But you are missing the point, if they are in NI, then they are already in the UK.

its what happens now for non-EU citizens, and what happened before the UK and Ireland joined the EU for non-UK and non-Irish citizens. it may look, and be, a bit odd, having the border checks at not-the-border, but it is a workable template that doesn't involve having immigration officers standing in fields on the border/hedge between Fermanagh and Cavan.

 

[sleaterkinney]

its what happens now for non-EU citizens, and what happened before the UK and Ireland joined the EU for non-UK and non-Irish citizens. it may look, and be, a bit odd, having the border checks at not-the-border, but it is a workable template that doesn't involve having immigration officers standing in fields on the border/hedge between Fermanagh and Cavan.

Ok, but it is still leaving NI open to free movement.

 

[andysays]

its what happens now for non-EU citizens, and what happened before the UK and Ireland joined the EU for non-UK and non-Irish citizens. it may look, and be, a bit odd, having the border checks at not-the-border, but it is a workable template that doesn't involve having immigration officers standing in fields on the border/hedge between Fermanagh and Cavan.

Don't let the DUP know

 

[sleaterkinney]

How do you stop NI and the UK being flooded with cheap goods if there's no border?.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Ok, but it is still leaving NI open to free movement.

The UK government is not fussed about EU passport holders walking in to the UK, they'll be waived in anyway. What they are concerned about is EU passport holders coming to the UK and settling down with a job here, with no checks to the numbers doing so. That's what they mean when they talk of ending free movement of people.

Why would this be an issue just cos people can flow freely between Eire and UK?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

How do you stop NI and the UK being flooded with cheap goods if there's no border?.

Coming from where? The EU?

 

[kebabking]

You are proposing a border in the Irish sea, no?

no, the border is where the border is - its rather that the enforcement of that border takes place wherever someone wishes to get on a plane or ferry, or wishes to hire a car, or take up employment, or see a Doctor. in a very similar way to how immigration/border control is managed in GB, the coastline is quite porous, you could employ a million immigration officers and they'd still not be able to cover every mile of coastline, so you move the enforcement to the choke points.

Ok, but it is still leaving NI open to free movement.

free movement is a silly term - the UK has never suggested that the ability to come and go should be restricted, its the ability to come and settle that will ended/be limited.

Dieter and Angela will still be able to hop on a flight from Dusselldorf, hire a car and be tourists, all without a visa, what they won't be able to do is hop on a plane, buy a house and get a job, all without a visa.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Coming from where? The EU?

Yep, they can dump all their surpluses into NI and from there into the rest of the UK.

 

[philosophical]

"the Irish border needs to be sorted out by brexit voters and the how is by suggesting a range of workabld and practical suggestions to choose from."

But this is almost exactly what you said you weren't suggesting! Do you imagine symposia of registered voters submitting position papers to government and the government being obliged to pick one? It's also entirely counter to what Burke had to say. Can you show me the procedure for that in Erskine May which would allow that process to take place? People can write to MPs all they like, but MPs will pass it on to the Brexit minister, who'll eventually send back a bland reply, at best enclosing a photocopied bullet point summary of what they were going to do anyway. (I have direct experience of this).

"the brexit vote was not for MP's but for, I dunno a concept and a practical process so the Burke principle is not the case in terms of the brexit referendum."

No, the Burkean principle of representative democracy still stands. It was not suspended by the terms of the wording on the referendum ballot paper.

We were asked: Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

The options were:

Remain a member of the European Union
Leave the European Union

Nothing here suggests either outcome would be carried out any way but by government, supported by the civil service. So you're in the realms of fantasy, and frankly you sound like you don't know what you're talking about.

"I think everybody should get a vote. I also think voters should take ownership of what they voted for. In the case of an MP if following experience of that MP they don't want them any more, then don't vote for them next time, in the case of brexit voters are (seemingly) stuck with their decision so they have a responsibility to follow it through."

What does "taking ownership" in this instance mean? Specifically. In what way do voters have a responsibility to "follow it through"? Specifically. You've said my understanding of what you're implying is incorrect. So you have to tell me exactly what you mean here, because it still sounds like you're calling for a suspension of representative democracy (and if so, great. But how do we achieve that?).

"I think the context of 2016 was a hatred of 'foreigners' largely. I also think voters might have been swayed by the allure of Farage, Boris and Gove so voted brexit in order to associate themselves with those people, that is what seems to have happened in 2016, brexit voters became allies of Boris Johnson because of what happened."

So we're back to "leave voters are racists". Where is your evidence for this? And even if you have evidence (which you don't), is that in itself context free? Was there a vacuum that this alleged xenophobia occurred in?

The allure of Farage and others. So, you mean an election campaign? Those dastardly politicians did a presentation job. Yes. That's what they do. The last bit about "brexit voters became allies of Boris Johnson". What does that even mean? But more to the point, what then? Especially since he's resigned. At time of writing he is not in government. The ballot paper does not say he had to be.

"'now what' is that the country suffers under the malign influence of right wing Tories."

Yes it does. That was decided in 2015, just before the referendum, and in 2017, just after it. Next scheduled one is 2022. Three years and a couple of months after the Brexit date. Now what?

I think we diverge when comparing the vote in a referendum to voting for your MP in a general Election.
You seem to be saying that the same democratic (?) principles apply in both instances, and are both examples of the procedure of a democratic process. I am saying there is a difference between those two democratic processes because one vote is for a (temporary) MP, and one vote is for a permanent brexit. If that places me in the realms of fantasy I will live with it, but I really think there is a difference.

I follow that up by asking, 'OK, if you voted brexit and you knew what you were voting for, tell us. Especially tell us about a fundamental like 'taking back control of the borders'' The most common response had been 'I don't know, I leave that stuff to the politicians'. Maybe brexit voters can't tell us specifics beyond 'I voted brexit because I hate foreigners/want a blue passport/ the daily Express told me to/the EU drowns migrants/Farage thinks we should leave so it's good enough for me', these examples explain the vote, but the tricky bit is along the lines of 'OK you got us here, explain what happens from now on'.
I think you're saying voters don't need to explain what happens next because they want to leave that sort of devilish detail to politicians and civil servants (hence my 'washing hands' comment earlier). We diverge when you seem to say it was ever thus, but I am saying no, this was a binary choice referendum and the circumstances are different. As they appear to be turning out to be anyway given the mess the UK is in. My challenge to brexit voters (a challenge many here take to be unreasonable) is that as they have now taken control of the process then come up with the solutions, or if they have no solutions maybe work to abandon the process.

My evidence for my hatred of foreigners is (apart from personal experiences) something like this which has been posted before:

You ask what I mean by the allure of Farage and co, and I mean just that. They have the power to trade in hatred, and I make no apologies saying that I certainly didn't want to be associated with that in any way when voting.

At least we seem to agree that the Tories are a malign influence.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Yep, they can dump all their surpluses into NI and from there into the rest of the UK.

It's the EU scared the UK will do just that which is why the EU wants a hard border between NI and the EU.

 

[sleaterkinney]

no, the border is where the border is - its rather that the enforcement of that border takes place wherever someone wishes to get on a plane or ferry, or wishes to hire a car, or take up employment, or see a Doctor. in a very similar way to how immigration/border control is managed in GB, the coastline is quite porous, you could employ a million immigration officers and they'd still not be able to cover every mile of coastline, so you move the enforcement to the choke points.



free movement is a silly term - the UK has never suggested that the ability to come and go should be restricted, its the ability to come and settle that will ended/be limited.

Dieter and Angela will still be able to hop on a flight from Dusselldorf, hire a car and be tourists, all without a visa, what they won't be able to do is hop on a plane, buy a house and get a job, all without a visa.

The issue is not Dieter and Angela, they would be able to get a visa whatever, the issue is with people who do not go through the official channels, they would still be able to go into NI.

 

[sleaterkinney]

It's the EU scared the UK will do just that which is why the EU wants a hard border between NI and the EU.

I don't think the EU is scared, the UK chief negotiator just quit...

 

[2hats]

free movement is a silly term

Apparently called mobility arrangements now, so that’s free movement solved.

 

[kebabking]

The issue is not Dieter and Angela, they would be able to get a visa whatever, the issue is with people who do not go through the official channels, they would still be able to go into NI.

they can get into Dorset, but life isn't much fun for an illegal, and the rump EU will be a much more attactive destination.

you've somewhat ignored the 'how do they get to Ireland in the first place?' thing - if they wouldn't get into the UK legally they probably wouldn't get into Ireland either...

 

[sleaterkinney]

they can get into Dorset, but life isn't much fun for an illegal, and the rump EU will be a much more attactive destination.

you've somewhat ignored the 'how do they get to Ireland in the first place?' thing - if they wouldn't get into the UK legally they probably wouldn't get into Ireland either...

But still, you have a situation where anyone in the EU can get into the UK, without a visa.

 

[kebabking]

But still, you have a situation where anyone in the EU can get into the UK, without a visa.

we've always had that. did you think that Brexit meant building a 12,000 mile fence?

 

[philosophical]

you mean in exactly the same was as happens now for non-EU citizens?

Yes indeed.
And it might be horrendously expensive and divisive, and also undermine people working to get by.
However if the solution to the UK borders is to leave them open, and deal with individuals by catching them scattered around the country by hoiking them away from their workplaces and sticking them in detention centres, then forcing them on to transport then that is perhaps your suggested solution.
I can see quite a lot of downsides to that system beyond the massively increased expense of it all when EU citizens have the same status of non EU citizens, and I can see it also having an impact on UK citizens in the EU.
I am aware that there is a suggestion of some kind of status for UK and EU people everywhere depending when a person arrived somewhere, but beyond that, with open borders, there will be a forceful state apparatus of repression to go after 'foreigners' who people are suspicious of.

 

[kebabking]

Yes indeed.
And it might be horrendously expensive and divisive, and also undermine people working to get by.
However if the solution to the UK borders is to leave them open, and deal with individuals by catching them scattered around the country by hoiking them away from their workplaces and sticking them in detention centres, then forcing them on to transport then that is perhaps your suggested solution.
I can see quite a lot of downsides to that system beyond the massively increased expense of it all when EU citizens have the same status of non EU citizens, and I can see it also having an impact on UK citizens in the EU.
I am aware that there is a suggestion of some kind of status for UK and EU people everywhere depending when a person arrived somewhere, but beyond that, with open borders, there will be a forceful state apparatus of repression to go after 'foreigners' who people are suspicious of.

resend key, over...

 

[sleaterkinney]

we've always had that. did you think that Brexit meant building a 12,000 mile fence?

I thought there would be border controls, yes.

 

[kebabking]

I thought there would be border controls, yes.

there will be - at ports and airports we'll have 'normal' border/customs/immigration controls, and while EU passport holders are very likely to be waved through as they currently are, they may have to have return tickets (i've no idea..), or have time limits stamped in their passports (again, no idea...), the only real difference will be that the current 'at depth' immigration controls that apply to non-EU citizens will apply to EU citizens as well, so buying/renting a house, opening a bank account, applying for a job etc..

 

[sleaterkinney]

we've always had that. did you think that Brexit meant building a 12,000 mile fence?

I mean, the UK govt has has two years to come up with a load of having your cake crap so what's this "brexit means this" bullshit??

 

[Raheem]

Apparently called mobility arrangements now, so that’s free movement solved.

I really hope they're not calling it that. People will be picturing refugees getting free scooters.

 

[danny la rouge]

I think we diverge when comparing the vote in a referendum to voting for your MP in a general Election.

God you're slippery. We aren't comparing those. You're saying that because the Brexit referendum was a referendum that somehow this means it is not the responsibility of government to conduct the Brexit process. I'm disagreeing. And frankly, you are wrong about this.

You seem to be saying that the same democratic (?) principles apply in both instances, and are both examples of the procedure of a democratic process. I am saying there is a difference between those two democratic processes because one vote is for a (temporary) MP, and one vote is for a permanent brexit.

It's quite straightforward. A referendum was put before the people by the government, asking one question (see my previous post). The referendum took place. The decision the people came to (the UK should Leave the European Union) is now being carried out by the government. That's how it works.

If that places me in the realms of fantasy I will live with it, but I really think there is a difference.

You said that "the Burke principle is not the case in terms of the brexit referendum". This is incorrect. This is where you are in the realms of fantasy. The referendum did not say "in the event of a decision to Leave the EU, government shall not being carrying out this wish, because Burkean principles shall in this regard not apply". You are tying yourself in knots here.

I follow that up by asking, 'OK, if you voted brexit and you knew what you were voting for, tell us.

The ballot paper said "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?". Whatever people may have thought they were voting for on either side, the only thing actually being decided was whether the United Kingdom would remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union. The latter was decided.

Especially tell us about a fundamental like 'taking back control of the borders''

That's just a question you might ask of someone. But that's not what you were saying. You were saying far more than that. You were saying that because this was a referendum that in some way voters had to become directly involved in "sorting" the negotiation process. But then you said no, you didn't mean that. That's not what "sorting" meant. I asked what it did mean. You said "the Irish border needs to be sorted out by brexit voters and the how is by suggesting a range of workabld and practical suggestions to choose from." Leave voters had to directly sort the Irish border out. That's not how the UK's form of democracy works. It'd give Walter Bagehot palpitations. It would be met by bemusement by the Speaker of the Commons. It doesn't even compute.

Maybe brexit voters can't tell us specifics beyond 'I voted brexit because I hate foreigners/want a blue passport/ the daily Express told me to/the EU drowns migrants/Farage thinks we should leave so it's good enough for me',

This is a straw man, so it's not something to which I can respond.

I think you're saying voters don't need to explain what happens next

Then you think wrong.

We diverge when you seem to say it was ever thus,

We diverge on quite a lot, including your characterisation of what I've said.

My challenge to brexit voters (a challenge many here take to be unreasonable) is that as they have now taken control of the process then come up with the solutions

I'm banging my head off a brick wall here. How have Leave voters "taken control of the process"? How?

My evidence for my hatred of foreigners is (apart from personal experiences) something like this which has been posted before:

You seem confused about how evidence works. That's evidence of a bunch of Daily Express front pages. That's not what I asked for.

You ask what I mean by the allure of Farage and co, and I mean just that.

That's not even a sentence. "The allure of Farage and co." Where is the verb? ("Allure" as used here is a noun). Where is the complete idea that is being expressed? At best that's a clause. It needs more work before it makes enough sense on its own for us to know what "just that" means at all.

They have the power to trade in hatred, and I make no apologies saying that I certainly didn't want to be associated with that in any way when voting.

That's nice. But what on earth has that got to do with your bizarre pronouncements on "Burke principles" not applying?

You are unhappy with the outcome of the referendum. OK, fine. But you're then going on to make things follow from that which just don't follow from that. Sorry, but they don't.

 

[philosophical]

God you're slippery. We aren't comparing those. You're saying that because the Brexit referendum was a referendum that somehow this means it is not the responsibility of government to conduct the Brexit process. I'm disagreeing. And frankly, you are wrong about this.

It's quite straightforward. A referendum was put before the people by the government, asking one question (see my previous post). The referendum took place. The decision the people came to (the UK should Leave the European Union) is now being carried out by the government. That's how it works.

You said that "the Burke principle is not the case in terms of the brexit referendum". This is incorrect. This is where you are in the realms of fantasy. The referendum did not say "in the event of a decision to Leave the EU, government shall not being carrying out this wish, because Burkean principles shall in this regard not apply". You are tying yourself in knots here.


The ballot paper said "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?". Whatever people may have thought they were voting for on either side, the only thing actually being decided was whether the United Kingdom would remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union. The latter was decided.


That's just a question you might ask of someone. But that's not what you were saying. You were saying far more than that. You were saying that because this was a referendum that in some way voters had to become directly involved in "sorting" the negotiation process. But then you said no, you didn't mean that. That's not what "sorting" meant. I asked what it did mean. You said "the Irish border needs to be sorted out by brexit voters and the how is by suggesting a range of workabld and practical suggestions to choose from." Leave voters had to directly sort the Irish border out. That's not how the UK's form of democracy works. It'd give Walter Bagehot palpitations. It would be met by bemusement by the Speaker of the Commons. It doesn't even compute.

This is a straw man, so it's not something to which I can respond.


Then you think wrong.


We diverge on quite a lot, including your characterisation of what I've said.


I'm banging my head off a brick wall here. How have Leave voters "taken control of the process"? How?


You seem confused about how evidence works. That's evidence of a bunch of Daily Express front pages. That's not what I asked for.


That's not even a sentence. "The allure of Farage and co." Where is the verb? ("Allure" as used here is a noun). Where is the complete idea that is being expressed? At best that's a clause. It needs more work before it makes enough sense on its own for us to know what "just that" means at all.


That's nice. But what on earth has that got to do with your bizarre pronouncements on "Burke principles" not applying?

You are unhappy with the outcome of the referendum. OK, fine. But you're then going on to make things follow from that which just don't follow from that. Sorry, but they don't.

You have more precise knowledge regarding elections, and past politics than me.
I respect that.
However a referendum, to me, is different to a general election even though you boil both down to a vote and the government takes over. I accept that.
You are also better at English grammar than I am, I will have to live with that.
I will await the government solution to the Irish border question, however I don't believe it is possible to solve without huge expense and political cost.
I am pretty sure I have a grip on how evidence works, although you may suggest some kind of subtle nuance I haven't thought of.
When it comes to the evidence before my eyes regarding what brexit voters have ushered in I am pretty sure I can get a handle on that as well.
Glee and incompetence from the winners, and bewilderment for the losers.
Hope your hospital visit wasn't too stressful.

 

[kabbes]

Aka “I don’t know what I’m talking about lol”