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Is Brexit actually going to happen?

Will we have a brexit?

  • Yes - A fully independant Britain making its own way in the world (apart from scotland).

    Votes: 66 18.2%

  • A Semi-Detached Norway type deal

    Votes: 111 30.7%

  • No - 2nd referendum and/or face saving fudge to let us slink back in feeling a bit fucking stupid

    Votes: 185 51.1%
  • Total voters
    362
kabbes said:
The point that when you use a phrase like "take back control of the UK borders" we know damn fine well what you are implying by it.
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Well that won't win you a prize. For clarity when brexiters voted to take back control of the UK borders the implication is simple to follow, take back control of the land border in Ireland. I didn't use a phrase 'like' it, I used the actual phrase.
 
philosophical said:
Well that won't win you a prize. For clarity when brexiters voted to take back control of the UK borders the implication is simple to follow, take back control of the land border in Ireland. I didn't use a phrase 'like' it, I used the actual phrase.
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in this instance kabbes' like meant 'such as'. have a pedant point.
 
philosophical said:
Well that won't win you a prize. For clarity when brexiters voted to take back control of the UK borders the implication is simple to follow, take back control of the land border in Ireland. I didn't use a phrase 'like' it, I used the actual phrase.
Click to expand...

Are you a bit thick? People who voted to leave did so for a whole host of individual reasons. They only had one vote and there is a very good chance borders wasn't their reason.
 
Supine said:
Are you a bit thick? People who voted to leave did so for a whole host of individual reasons. They only had one vote and there is a very good chance borders wasn't their reason.
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There could be a myriad of reasons, but to 'leave' implies a separation, no longer connected as it were, and if anybody doesn't think that means a border, then they are the ones who are a bit thick. Voting to leave does not mean voting to stay, ergo a point of separation or division between the two entities. I mean did anybody seriously vote leave expecting the borders to remain the same?
Whatever reasons people may have told themselves and others they had, the result has happened and the nature of the borders have changed or will change. The next question now that brexiters voted to take back control of the UK borders, is how do they intend to do it.
One measly year to go.
 
philosophical said:
There could be a myriad of reasons, but to 'leave' implies a separation, no longer connected as it were, and if anybody doesn't think that means a border, then they are the ones who are a bit thick. Voting to leave does not mean voting to stay, ergo a point of separation or division between the two entities. I mean did anybody seriously vote leave expecting the borders to remain the same?
Whatever reasons people may have told themselves and others they had, the result has happened and the nature of the borders have changed or will change. The next question now that brexiters voted to take back control of the UK borders, is how do they intend to do it.
One measly year to go.
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index.jpg
 
philosophical said:
There could be a myriad of reasons, but to 'leave' implies a separation, no longer connected as it were, and if anybody doesn't think that means a border, then they are the ones who are a bit thick. Voting to leave does not mean voting to stay, ergo a point of separation or division between the two entities. I mean did anybody seriously vote leave expecting the borders to remain the same?
Whatever reasons people may have told themselves and others they had, the result has happened and the nature of the borders have changed or will change. The next question now that brexiters voted to take back control of the UK borders, is how do they intend to do it.
One measly year to go.
Click to expand...
And then you'll stop?

Or is that a threat?
 
kabbes said:
Round and round and round we go.

He’s been given three perfectly workable solutions already. He just doesn’t like any of them. What a shame, add it to the list.
Click to expand...
Perfectly workable solutions?
No that hasn't happened or been suggested.
There are things that might happen but to call them 'solutions' is a bit ambitious, like the extreme example of a 310 mile razor wire fence with armed patrols...that would be workable, but probably falls down on the 'perfect' bit.
A united land mass might happen, well the express statement of the brexiteers leader, Theresa May, is that she would refuse to break up the Union, so the 'perfect' bit is tested quite a lot there. Especially as brexit voters are in hock to the DUP.
Electronic monitoring, like with drones, random checks, microchips and such like means the 'hard border' that nearly everybody, and also the Belfast Agreement, says wouldn't return. Not only would any kind of technological approach fail within half an hour so that doesn't count as a 'solution', but the imperfections (for example the prohibitive costs) rule out the 'perfect' bit too.
A 'trade agreement' implies the exact same conditions on either side of the border with no checks needed, but not having a single market or customs union rules that out, or it means not leaving the EU at all. Any differences on either side of a trade, or political border would mean some kind of control of said border.
So you are right to suggest there are 'solutions' but they would come at a very heavy price, the heaviest of which would be bloodshed. However as yet, with all the time that has passed, and the short time to come, no practical or 'perfectly workable' solutions have either been suggested or accepted. This is the reality that brexiters face now that they have won the battle to take back control, but brexiters seem unable and unwilling to face that reality.
 
philosophical said:
There could be a myriad of reasons, but to 'leave' implies a separation, no longer connected as it were, and if anybody doesn't think that means a border, then they are the ones who are a bit thick. Voting to leave does not mean voting to stay, ergo a point of separation or division between the two entities. I mean did anybody seriously vote leave expecting the borders to remain the same?
Whatever reasons people may have told themselves and others they had, the result has happened and the nature of the borders have changed or will change. The next question now that brexiters voted to take back control of the UK borders, is how do they intend to do it.
One measly year to go
Click to expand...

We are not getting anything interesting from these posts. If you go on Twitter and put #FBPE on your Twitter handle you'll get loads of followers who will love you forever.
 
philosophical said:
Perfectly workable solutions?
No that hasn't happened or been suggested.
There are things that might happen but to call them 'solutions' is a bit ambitious, like the extreme example of a 310 mile razor wire fence with armed patrols...that would be workable, but probably falls down on the 'perfect' bit.
A united land mass might happen, well the express statement of the brexiteers leader, Theresa May, is that she would refuse to break up the Union, so the 'perfect' bit is tested quite a lot there. Especially as brexit voters are in hock to the DUP.
Electronic monitoring, like with drones, random checks, microchips and such like means the 'hard border' that nearly everybody, and also the Belfast Agreement, says wouldn't return. Not only would any kind of technological approach fail within half an hour so that doesn't count as a 'solution', but the imperfections (for example the prohibitive costs) rule out the 'perfect' bit too.
A 'trade agreement' implies the exact same conditions on either side of the border with no checks needed, but not having a single market or customs union rules that out, or it means not leaving the EU at all. Any differences on either side of a trade, or political border would mean some kind of control of said border.
So you are right to suggest there are 'solutions' but they would come at a very heavy price, the heaviest of which would be bloodshed. However as yet, with all the time that has passed, and the short time to come, no practical or 'perfectly workable' solutions have either been suggested or accepted. This is the reality that brexiters face now that they have won the battle to take back control, but brexiters seem unable and unwilling to face that reality.
Click to expand...
Jesus, the 325 mile barbed wire fence is from Bahnhoffstrasse's post about the fence that already exists in the EU, on the eastern side!! Liar!!!
 
philosophical said:
Perfectly workable solutions?
No that hasn't happened or been suggested.
There are things that might happen but to call them 'solutions' is a bit ambitious, like the extreme example of a 310 mile razor wire fence with armed patrols...that would be workable, but probably falls down on the 'perfect' bit.
A united land mass might happen, well the express statement of the brexiteers leader, Theresa May, is that she would refuse to break up the Union, so the 'perfect' bit is tested quite a lot there. Especially as brexit voters are in hock to the DUP.
Electronic monitoring, like with drones, random checks, microchips and such like means the 'hard border' that nearly everybody, and also the Belfast Agreement, says wouldn't return. Not only would any kind of technological approach fail within half an hour so that doesn't count as a 'solution', but the imperfections (for example the prohibitive costs) rule out the 'perfect' bit too.
A 'trade agreement' implies the exact same conditions on either side of the border with no checks needed, but not having a single market or customs union rules that out, or it means not leaving the EU at all. Any differences on either side of a trade, or political border would mean some kind of control of said border.
So you are right to suggest there are 'solutions' but they would come at a very heavy price, the heaviest of which would be bloodshed. However as yet, with all the time that has passed, and the short time to come, no practical or 'perfectly workable' solutions have either been suggested or accepted. This is the reality that brexiters face now that they have won the battle to take back control, but brexiters seem unable and unwilling to face that reality.
Click to expand...
I don't think you understand what "perfectly workable" means. Nor, for that matter, what the solutions were.
 
teuchter said:
Can you remind us what the three perfectly workable solutions were (and more importantly what they were a solution to)?
Click to expand...
1) United Ireland
2) Hard border in Irish sea, NI remains part of EU
3) Hard border between RoI and NI.

They are all solutions to the problem that if the UK and the EU do not have a suitable trade deal, there needs to be a border between the UK and the RoI.

Of course, a 4th solution would be:
4) Trade deal that prevents the need for a hard border at all.

All of these things can be made to work in practice, which makes them perfectly workable. Yes, there will be implementation difficulties and yes, there will be losers and antagonistic parties resulting from any of the solution. Welcome to the world.
 
Solution 1: Whole UK stays in the customs union the problem with this it means that the whole point of Brexit pretty much ceases to be a point and the Tory Brexit backbenchers won't not like it and the Govt possibly falls
Soluton 2: NI stays in the custom union on its tod, the problems with this is the Scots will demand (and probably eventually get) the same deal, not soon but long term, the integrity of the UK may be threatened.
The Tory brexit backbenchers AND the DUP will like it even less than 1) and the Govt will probably definitely fall.
Solution 3: Some kind of border which may very well be largely virtual rather than physical, the NI nationalists won't like, the ROI government definitely won't like it and they have the power to stall talks as long as they want.
Whatever solution is picked will also affect the other land border we have with the EU (Spain/Gibraltar)
Whether the Govt falls is an upside or a downside depends on who you are, It's no skin off my nose but the people making or more accurately avoiding making the decision care about that a lot.
 
kabbes said:
1) United Ireland
2) Hard border in Irish sea, NI remains part of EU
3) Hard border between RoI and NI.

They are all solutions to the problem that if the UK and the EU do not have a suitable trade deal, there needs to be a border between the UK and the RoI.

Of course, a 4th solution would be:
4) Trade deal that prevents the need for a hard border at all.

All of these things can be made to work in practice, which makes them perfectly workable. Yes, there will be implementation difficulties and yes, there will be losers and antagonistic parties resulting from any of the solution. Welcome to the world.
Click to expand...
These solutions rely on quite a broad definition of "perfectly workable". One that would also include abandoning Brexit. It would antagonise a bunch of people but whatevs. Welcome to the world. It would save everyone a load of hassle.
 
teuchter said:
These solutions rely on quite a broad definition of "perfectly workable". One that would also include abandoning Brexit. It would antagonise a bunch of people but whatevs. Welcome to the world. It would save everyone a load of hassle.
Click to expand...
I don't think I have ever suggested that abandoning Brexit wouldn't solve the border problem. However, the ridiculous notion being put forward by philosophical is that there is no workable solution even possible in the event that Brexit goes ahead. So I have provided three (well, now four)

To be honest, I'm pretty neutral as to whether Brexit happens or not. Although the country has gone fucking bonkers over it, I don't honestly think the question of whether or not we are in the EU ranks even in the top 20 things we actually need to worry about. The world moves on either way, and it can do so under a range of political philosophies either way. Exit the EU, don't exit the EU -- it's not the deciding factor in how we will treat inequality, health, care or any other aspect of human dignity. We can make those decisions whether in or out of the EU.
 
teuchter said:
These solutions rely on quite a broad definition of "perfectly workable". One that would also include abandoning Brexit. It would antagonise a bunch of people but whatevs. Welcome to the world. It would save everyone a load of hassle.
Click to expand...

Fair Point. NEXT UP Can we get rid of elections? Having to go down the community centre and tick a box every 4/5 years can be a right pain in the arse especially if its raining.
 
kabbes said:
I don't think I have ever suggested that abandoning Brexit wouldn't solve the border problem. However, the ridiculous notion being put forward by philosophical is that there is no workable solution even possible in the event that Brexit goes ahead. So I have provided three (well, now four)

To be honest, I'm pretty neutral as to whether Brexit happens or not. Although the country has gone fucking bonkers over it, I don't honestly think the question of whether or not we are in the EU ranks even in the top 20 things we actually need to worry about. The world moves on either way, and it can do so under a range of political philosophies either way. Exit the EU, don't exit the EU -- it's not the deciding factor in how we will treat inequality, health, care or any other aspect of human dignity. We can make those decisions whether in or out of the EU.
Click to expand...
Except the ones the eu won't let us make.
 
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