Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[philosophical]

The EU has exactly that, well 325 miles long, on it eastern flank, erected to explicitly keep brown people from entering EU territory. And after a week of your rubbish not one thing you have posted has changed my opinion of you as a massive wanker.

Thank goodness for that, your approval is the last thing I seek.

 

[Santino]

Well I suppose it is practical if there is a 310 mile long 15 meter fence topped with razor wire, and machine gun nests suitably spaced along it, that is one idea...although it might not go down well with farming folk who have one farm in both countries.

It might be practical to use drones and check points and random spot checks on workers, or everybody has an ID card, or is obliged to be chipped in the ear lobe or something, these things might be workable. Is that kind of stuff what you think brexit voters mean by taking back control of the UK borders?

If not that, then what others solutions might there be, the notion that something has to give because the circle can't be squared as it were is an interesting one, until one comes up against the notion that people in the Republic are those who have to do the giving to help along the brexit vote result from the people in the UK.

Not only do I have ideological issues, I have issues regarding how the hard border will impact people day to day.

A 'fudge' has been proposed, but a friend in Northern Ireland sent me this:

' I do not believe that a fudge is possible, for the very simple reason that WTO rules would make such a fudge the default position for the external borders of both the EU and UK in trade terms, post Brexit.

There has to be a detailed agreement to define the relationship between the the two parties, in both of their interests.

As for the potential for violence, I have mentioned that the PSNI are convinced that the presence of any customs infrastructure on (or near) the border in Northern Ireland would be a target for dissidents. It's precisely what has happened before on the border, and could reasonably be expected to happen again (the post on the border at Aughnacloy was destroyed by a car bomb in the 1970s and the gutted remanats remained until about 10-15 years ago).

The key point about the GFA is that joint membership of the EU was assumed in terms of the relationship between the UK and Ireland - just like breathing is assumed for any of us discussing this.'

The reason the people in Lincolnshire should be concerned is that until things improve the brexit referendum was a UK wide vote, and when they voted, they voted for something that impacts the lives of those who are called UK citizens in Lincolnshire, and in Cornwall, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland whether that suits them or not.
Indeed it is frequently said that those struggling in various regions object to decisions made about their lives by the remote metropolitan elite in London, yet that is what they have done themselves, made decisions about the lives of people miles away.

You ask why folk in Lincolnshire should 'prioritise' their agenda to be subsumed by those in Ireland who wish to travel freely to and fro, and my answer is that if you don't wish to order your priorities, then you should have a solution ready if your own priorities have a negative impact on others.

It is a bit like polluting the water upstream because getting rid of that waste is your 'priority', and not caring about what happens to the people who depend on that water downstream.

If that analogy has any resonance or meaning, could it be that the people upstream see themselves as superior to the people downstream in some way? Would that kind of attitude be a doorway into a racist, ignorant and tosser like perspectives?

I get emails like this too. Because that's a normal thing.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I was thinking that's where he got the idea from.

I doubt the myopic twat’s ever considered it tbf. A tad ironic calling leave voters racist for an action that could result in a border between Irish people, whilst being a keen supporter of an institution that had a fence erected explicitly to repel brown people. His own moronic logic would classify him as a racist.

 

[Wilf]

Indeed I posted above that possibly not all brexit voters are racist, and when discussing 'Lexit' accepted that there may have been other reasons why people voted brexit, but those people have ushered in and given licence to more open racism whether they want to admit to it or not in my view. Maybe brexit voters could express regret at that, and focus on the Irish border as a symbol that at least that they don't want the racist result of brexit to prevail. Again that kind of concept has been dismissed with distain by many posting here who said nobody considered Ireland before the vote, why should it matter now.

so, you think brexit voters should apologise for ushering in racism when, as I've mentioned on this thread to you, many who voted for brexit are active anti-racists. And then, what, your desire that people should come up with a solution for the border is a bit like detention at school - doing lines? Truly bizarre logic. Again, as pointed out to you, nobody on the left brought this referendum about - the tories did. And your logic seems to be that the spike in hate crimes somehow becomes the fault of people who have... long campaigned against hate crimes. This is tenuous, 'but for a horse a kingdom was lost' attribution. Racism and nationalism happened because of the very era we live in, the social forces in play, the failures of the left, not some fucking vote.

 

[Wilf]

I doubt the myopic twat’s ever considered it tbf. A tad ironic calling leave voters racist for an action that could result in a border between Irish people, whilst being a keen supporter of an institution that had a fence erected explicitly to repel brown people. His own moronic logic would classify him as a racist.

Indeed, philosophical is the ultimate nationalist. An institution built on exploitation and exclusion. God bless the racism of the free market and its tarrifs.

 

[philosophical]

I doubt the myopic twat’s ever considered it tbf. A tad ironic calling leave voters racist for an action that could result in a border between Irish people, whilst being a keen supporter of an institution that had a fence erected explicitly to repel brown people. His own moronic logic would classify him as a racist.

'Keen supporter' is it now?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Indeed, philosophical is the ultimate nationalist. An institution built on exploitation and exclusion. God bless the racism of the free market and its tarrifs.

He’s a nasty piece of work.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Christ liberals are too feart to even follow through with their own arguments. It's tough holding that middle ground.

 

[philosophical]

so, you think brexit voters should apologise for ushering in racism when, as I've mentioned on this thread to you, many who voted for brexit are active anti-racists. And then, what, your desire that people should come up with a solution for the border is a bit like detention at school - doing lines? Truly bizarre logic. Again, as pointed out to you, nobody on the left brought this referendum about - the tories did. And your logic seems to be that the spike in hate crimes somehow becomes the fault of people who have... long campaigned against hate crimes. This is tenuous, 'but for a horse a kingdom was lost' attribution. Racism and nationalism happened because of the very era we live in, the social forces in play, the failures of the left, not some fucking vote.

You talk of tenuous, yet don't see the irony in saying something like 'your logic seems to be that the spike in hate crimes somehow becomes the fault of people who have... long campaigned against hate crimes'. Making a tenuous link regarding nothing I have said.

As regard to the significance of the vote and racism and nationalism, sometimes there are moments that have huge significance in history (would you grant me that?), the election or emergence of certain leaders can usher in societies of all sorts and fundamental changes can follow. My partner for example had to live through the cultural revolution in China, where her mother and father were removed without notice for six years, and then restored without notice to their previous jobs, there are many tales to tell about the seismic impact of the cultural revolution in China. Or there may be a disaster, or a violent event, or something. A more recent (hopefully society changing event) is the Harvey Weinstein affair. In the face of centuries of abuse by the powerful towards the weak for selfish purposes there seems to be a sea change that says enough is enough.
Of course Brexit isn't the Cultural revolution or the Holocaust, of course not. But Brexit is happening now, in the era in which we live, it is significantly impactful, others say it is the most significant moment for the UK since the Second World War. It does not seem to be a gradual or inevitable result of some sociological process which is almost absorbed unknowingly, but a massive explosion or revelation of something. As I said, the serious impact of brexit has been seen by many as not another step along the road, but as having reached a massive fork in the road. And it has happened precisely because of 'some fucking vote' as has the dreadful emergence of Trump (at least he won't last forever).
I don't know if it is your intention to downplay the significance of brexit as just another one of those things, it can't (in my view) be regarded as some kind of Ealing Comedy where schoolchildren suffer in a dusty classroom, but as you might realise I see it as serious and impactful where the dramatic shift in 'social forces' has thrown up serious questions that spread out beyond the intelligentsia.
My thoughts may come across as 'totally bizarre' to you, but that is how I see it, you see it differently.

 

[philosophical]

He’s a nasty piece of work.

Wehey!
Couldn't you be a bit more creative than that?

 

[kabbes]

I still have no idea what point philosophical is trying to make or what he is trying to achieve with his several hundred posts on this thread. It’s a total mystery. There is no argument being set forth, no theory, no evidence, nothing. Just reaction that attempts to close down any hint of a position.

 

[Wilf]

You talk of tenuous, yet don't see the irony in saying something like 'your logic seems to be that the spike in hate crimes somehow becomes the fault of people who have... long campaigned against hate crimes'. Making a tenuous link regarding nothing I have said.

As regard to the significance of the vote and racism and nationalism, sometimes there are moments that have huge significance in history (would you grant me that?), the election or emergence of certain leaders can usher in societies of all sorts and fundamental changes can follow. My partner for example had to live through the cultural revolution in China, where her mother and father were removed without notice for six years, and then restored without notice to their previous jobs, there are many tales to tell about the seismic impact of the cultural revolution in China. Or there may be a disaster, or a violent event, or something. A more recent (hopefully society changing event) is the Harvey Weinstein affair. In the face of centuries of abuse by the powerful towards the weak for selfish purposes there seems to be a sea change that says enough is enough.
Of course Brexit isn't the Cultural revolution or the Holocaust, of course not. But Brexit is happening now, in the era in which we live, it is significantly impactful, others say it is the most significant moment for the UK since the Second World War. It does not seem to be a gradual or inevitable result of some sociological process which is almost absorbed unknowingly, but a massive explosion or revelation of something. As I said, the serious impact of brexit has been seen by many as not another step along the road, but as having reached a massive fork in the road. And it has happened precisely because of 'some fucking vote' as has the dreadful emergence of Trump (at least he won't last forever).
I don't know if it is your intention to downplay the significance of brexit as just another one of those things, it can't (in my view) be regarded as some kind of Ealing Comedy where schoolchildren suffer in a dusty classroom, but as you might realise I see it as serious and impactful where the dramatic shift in 'social forces' has thrown up serious questions that spread out beyond the intelligentsia.
My thoughts may come across as 'totally bizarre' to you, but that is how I see it, you see it differently.

It's about social forces, long term political projects, competing visions of neo-liberalism. But if you are worried about racism, worried about austerity, worried about the impact on communities, what's the productive thing to do? Brexit will happen in some shape, form and fudge. Neo Liberalism will continue. Get involved? Fight back?

 

[MickiQ]

Well I suppose it is practical if there is a 310 mile long 15 meter fence topped with razor wire, and machine gun nests suitably spaced along it, that is one idea...although it might not go down well with farming folk who have one farm in both countries.

It might be practical to use drones and check points and random spot checks on workers, or everybody has an ID card, or is obliged to be chipped in the ear lobe or something, these things might be workable. Is that kind of stuff what you think brexit voters mean by taking back control of the UK borders?

Go and have a lie down my friend or a couple of pints you will feel so much better, even in the worst case scenario, the very hardest of Hard Borders will contain very little in the way of anything physical, it will consist of checkpoints on the main road crossing guarded by men armed with nothing more dangerous than a clipboard. The whole point of a 'hard' border is to inspect goods going UK->ROI and ROI->UK and making sure that health and safety standards are met and most important of all both governments are getting their cut in the form of tariffs.
Only commercial vehicles need to be stopped, private cars and people on foot could travel without hindrance.
There are problems with this of course, there are hotheads on both sides of the border who will regard any kind of border as outrageous provocation and such a border will be an invitation to enterprising Irish businessmen to come up with creative ways to not pay or claim back tax refunds.
No-one is going to be shipping guns across it though there will be too much money to be made moving booze, fags or cheap consumer goods.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I still have no idea what point philosophical is trying to make or what he is trying to achieve with his several hundred posts on this thread. It’s a total mystery. There is no argument being set forth, no theory, no evidence, nothing. Just reaction that attempts to close down any hint of a position.

It had no point to make, it’s just a tedious twat.

If you ever fancy doing yet another degree, perhaps look in to why divs who give themselves monikers like DeepThinker, Philosopical, etc. are invariably the opposite of what they brand themselves as. There must be something that fuels this delusion.

 

[Wilf]

You talk of tenuous, yet don't see the irony in saying something like 'your logic seems to be that the spike in hate crimes somehow becomes the fault of people who have... long campaigned against hate crimes'. Making a tenuous link regarding nothing I have said.

As regard to the significance of the vote and racism and nationalism, sometimes there are moments that have huge significance in history (would you grant me that?), the election or emergence of certain leaders can usher in societies of all sorts and fundamental changes can follow. My partner for example had to live through the cultural revolution in China, where her mother and father were removed without notice for six years, and then restored without notice to their previous jobs, there are many tales to tell about the seismic impact of the cultural revolution in China. Or there may be a disaster, or a violent event, or something. A more recent (hopefully society changing event) is the Harvey Weinstein affair. In the face of centuries of abuse by the powerful towards the weak for selfish purposes there seems to be a sea change that says enough is enough.
Of course Brexit isn't the Cultural revolution or the Holocaust, of course not. But Brexit is happening now, in the era in which we live, it is significantly impactful, others say it is the most significant moment for the UK since the Second World War. It does not seem to be a gradual or inevitable result of some sociological process which is almost absorbed unknowingly, but a massive explosion or revelation of something. As I said, the serious impact of brexit has been seen by many as not another step along the road, but as having reached a massive fork in the road. And it has happened precisely because of 'some fucking vote' as has the dreadful emergence of Trump (at least he won't last forever).
I don't know if it is your intention to downplay the significance of brexit as just another one of those things, it can't (in my view) be regarded as some kind of Ealing Comedy where schoolchildren suffer in a dusty classroom, but as you might realise I see it as serious and impactful where the dramatic shift in 'social forces' has thrown up serious questions that spread out beyond the intelligentsia.
My thoughts may come across as 'totally bizarre' to you, but that is how I see it, you see it differently.

Well, ultimately we have to wait and see how bad it gets. My guess is that the simple process of 'doing brexit', at least the tory version of it, will have an economic cost. But that's not going to guilt trip me into saying I should have voted against it. It wasn't my referendum. And ultimately the people who are at the shitty end of the stick will be the same people who always were/are. Yes, I suspect there will be people who have lived here for years who get kicked out. We'll have to see how many. It will be shit for a fair number of families. Pretty much like those from outside the EU who get kicked out now. But y'know, what to do? Fight back, get organised? The usual stuff.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

It had no point to make, it’s just a tedious twat.

If you ever fancy doing yet another degree, perhaps look in to why divs who give themselves monikers like DeepThinker, Philosopical, etc. are invariably the opposite of what they brand themselves as. There must be something that fuels this delusion.

People that keep trying to beef up tweets and that by dropping "the facts" in wherever possible whilst either not coming up with any FACTS or not managing to apply randomly googled FACTS to the discussion at hand must fit in here too.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

People that keep trying to beef up tweets and that by dropping "the facts" in wherever possible whilst either not coming up with any FACTS or not managing to apply randomly googled FACTS to the discussion at hand must fit in here too.

The analogy of this place as a pub works well. Walk in and declare you hate half the punters. See how that works for you.

Then alienate the other half by being an obnoxious arse.

 

[philosophical]

Well, ultimately we have to wait and see how bad it gets. My guess is that the simple process of 'doing brexit', at least the tory version of it, will have an economic cost. But that's not going to guilt trip me into saying I should have voted against it. It wasn't my referendum. And ultimately the people who are at the shitty end of the stick will be the same people who always were/are. Yes, I suspect there will be people who have lived here for years who get kicked out. We'll have to see how many. It will be shit for a fair number of families. Pretty much like those from outside the EU who get kicked out now. But y'know, what to do? Fight back, get organised? The usual stuff.

Yes. Fighting back, getting organised is what to do. However as Sun Tuz says, engage your enemy at a place of your choosing not theirs.

 

[philosophical]

Go and have a lie down my friend or a couple of pints you will feel so much better, even in the worst case scenario, the very hardest of Hard Borders will contain very little in the way of anything physical, it will consist of checkpoints on the main road crossing guarded by men armed with nothing more dangerous than a clipboard. The whole point of a 'hard' border is to inspect goods going UK->ROI and ROI->UK and making sure that health and safety standards are met and most important of all both governments are getting their cut in the form of tariffs.
Only commercial vehicles need to be stopped, private cars and people on foot could travel without hindrance.
There are problems with this of course, there are hotheads on both sides of the border who will regard any kind of border as outrageous provocation and such a border will be an invitation to enterprising Irish businessmen to come up with creative ways to not pay or claim back tax refunds.
No-one is going to be shipping guns across it though there will be too much money to be made moving booze, fags or cheap consumer goods.

You are more optimistic than me.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes. Fighting back, getting organised is what to do. However as Sun Tuz says, engage your enemy at a place of your choosing not theirs.

You're not going to engage anyone anywhere anytime over anything. You're just a void.

 

[philosophical]

You're not going to engage anyone anywhere anytime over anything. You're just a void.

Nice one, definite signs of creative progress here.
The anyone anywhere anytime anything bit is borderline poetic.
Borderline...see what I did there?
You have a chance to up your game further if your inclined to do so.

 

[Pickman's model]

Nice one, definite signs of creative progress here.
The anyone anywhere anytime anything bit is borderline poetic.
Borderline...see what I did there?
You have a chance to up your game further if your inclined to do so.

Yeh. At least he's got a game.

 

[philosophical]

Yeh. At least he's got a game.

 

[philosophical]

Goodness me, and then you turn up, the game must be snap.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeh. At least he's got a game.

why not add something of your own?

 

[philosophical]

why not add something of your own?

In what regard?

 

[butchersapron]

why not add something of your own?

Gawd, don't be encouraging him.

 

[DexterTCN]

It had no point to make, it’s just a tedious twat.

It?

 

[Wilf]

Yes. Fighting back, getting organised is what to do. However as Sun Tuz says, engage your enemy at a place of your choosing not theirs.

Other than on this thread, where will you be engaging your enemy?

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

"Scotland" has arrived. Rest of us better hud oor weesht.