Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[The39thStep]

He didn't really try to "reform" anything, though. He just tried to get more special treatment for the UK, which is not really the same.

The EU most definitely will undertake reforms in the near future (although the undertaking itself might take a while), because everybody understands that there are multiple potential disasters ahead otherwise. Whether they're the reforms you have in mind (assuming you are thinking of anything specific) is another matter.

And which reforms will they most definitely be undertaking?

 

[The39thStep]

I thought you lot would like this.

View attachment 129651

No reform there then , just naked self interest from another unelected elite

 

[Pickman's model]

The way that the UK has handled Brexit is so weak and incompetent that it has taken the pressure off the EU to reform.

There was no pressure on the eu to reform

 

[T & P]

I think there's this lot:

Who think the EU = Europe basically and is perfect.

And then there are more thoughtful Guardianista types who think the EU could/should be reformed.

Both completely deluded in my view. But Remainers are not a monolith any more than Leave voters are.

I have never met a single remainer or indeed anyone else who ever claimed the EU was perfect or remotely close to it. One had to be mad not to agree it is deeply flawed.

But the purpose of the referendum was not a about a vote of confidence or approval for the EU. It was about whether the UK is better off in it or out, regardless of the EU’s many shortcomings. And I myself can’t see any scenario in which the UK will be better off out.

 

[Wilf]

I thought you lot would like this.

View attachment 129651

Indeed I do, Milord Adonis is the first person I usually turn to for political analysis!

 

[butchersapron]

I have never met a single remainer or indeed anyone else who ever claimed the EU was perfect or remotely close to it. One had to be mad not to agree it is deeply flawed.

But the purpose of the referendum was not a about a vote of confidence or approval for the EU. It was about whether the UK is better off in it or out, regardless of the EU’s many shortcomings. And I myself can’t see any scenario in which the UK will be better off out.

Now you have the opp to outline and push for EU reform. Maybe to stop brexit, to position yourself for a 2nd referendum or just to offer some tips to your Eu remain fellows.

 

[Wilf]

I have never met a single remainer or indeed anyone else who ever claimed the EU was perfect or remotely close to it. One had to be mad not to agree it is deeply flawed.

But the purpose of the referendum was not a about a vote of confidence or approval for the EU. It was about whether the UK is better off in it or out, regardless of the EU’s many shortcomings. And I myself can’t see any scenario in which the UK will be better off out.

You post is some way short of the daftness exhibited by philosophical in terms of what the vote was. But equally, it falls into a similar trap of overly being confident about how people saw its purpose.

 

[Yossarian]

Is the EU going to be reformed by Britain leaving? When we talk about the EU, we're talking about something that's 15% British, not a totally foreign entity - how did British MEPs vote on issues like Greek debt?

 

[butchersapron]

Is the EU going to be reformed by Britain leaving? When we talk about the EU, we're talking about something that's 15% British, not a totally foreign entity - how did British MEPs vote on issues like Greek debt?

What vote did they get yoss?

 

[DexterTCN]

Is the EU going to be reformed by Britain leaving? When we talk about the EU, we're talking about something that's 15% British, not a totally foreign entity - how did British MEPs vote on issues like Greek debt?

Do the brexiteers have a plan? They seem very concerned.

How will brexit, or brexiteers who talk about Greece, help Greece?

 

[Yossarian]

What vote did they get yoss?

I don't know, I thought there had at least been a resolution or two but the records seem impenetrable. Is there any record of dissent to the Greek deal from British members of the European Commission?

 

[Yossarian]

Do the brexiteers have a plan? They seem very concerned.

How will brexit, or brexiteers who talk about Greece, help Greece?

Well, they probably won't be imposing more austerity on it...

 

[butchersapron]

I don't know, I thought there had at least been a resolution or two but the records seem impenetrable. Is there any record of dissent to the Greek deal from British members of the European Commission?

They had no vote. It wasn't anything to do with them. Designed not to be.

Or you.

 

[paolo]

Well, they probably won't be imposing more austerity on it...

Pro rata, about £200m less paid to Greece once we’ve stopped paying.

That’s entirely hypothetical I should add. No EU decision on how to rebalance payments yet.

 

[butchersapron]

Pro rata, about £200m less paid to Greece once we’ve stopped paying.

That’s entirely hypothetical I should add. No EU decision on how to rebalance payments yet.

Explain this

 

[Raheem]

They had no vote. It wasn't anything to do with them. Designed not to be.

Or you.

Well, it was nothing to do with the UK, because it's not part of the Eurogroup. Which means re-run the same scenario post-Brexit and the only difference is that Greece is probably getting less EU subsidy.

There were votes in other European parliaments, though. Which is where the problem lay, specifically in the case of Germany. So one question for the future of the EU is about national sovereignty versus solidarity between member states.

 

[teuchter]

Now you have the opp to outline and push for EU reform. Maybe to stop brexit, to position yourself for a 2nd referendum or just to offer some tips to your Eu remain fellows.

This is one organisation people can get involved in if they are interested in EU reform.

What is DiEM25?

Even Yanis doesn't think Brexit is going to help democracy in Europe, Greece, or Britain. I seem to remember him describing Brexit as the lazy response to dissatisfaction with EU institutions and how they are dealing with Greece.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

This is one organisation people can get involved in if they are interested in EU reform.

What is DiEM25?

Even Yanis doesn't think Brexit is going to help democracy in Europe, Greece, or Britain. I seem to remember him describing Brexit as the lazy response to dissatisfaction with EU institutions and how they are dealing with Greece.

Why should we be listening to Yanis?

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

solidarity between member states.

You can't be serious?

 

[Raheem]

You can't be serious?

I didn't say what will be chosen, but it's clear what the choice is.

 

[toblerone3]

Why should we be listening to Yanis?

Well....put it another way, why shouldn't we?

 

[redsquirrel]

I have never met a single remainer or indeed anyone else who ever claimed the EU was perfect or remotely close to it. One had to be mad not to agree it is deeply flawed.

Maybe you should open your eyes. You've got someone on this very thread who has repeatedly insists that the EU is more democratic than the UK, you had marches with people (and people on U75) insisting that the EU is the anti-racist pro-freedom of movement alternative to the racist UK. There's plenty of people who have argued not just that Remain is the least worst option but that the EU is a genuinely good thing.

 

[billbond]

"EU is a genuinely good thing."

Not for me its not and millions of others
All about opinions i spose

 

[Supine]

Not for me its not and millions of others

It is for me and millions of others

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Well....put it another way, why shouldn't we?

I'm happy with the question as it was originally posed, are you able to answer it?

 

[philosophical]

Maybe you should open you're eyes. You've got someone on this very thread who has repeatedly insists that the EU is more democratic than the UK, you had marches with people (and people on U75) insisting that the EU is the anti-racist pro-freedom of movement alternative to the racist UK. There's plenty of people who have argued not just that Remain is the least worst option but that the EU is a genuinely good thing.

The UK version of democracy is worse than the EU. One example is that yesterday a link was posted about a corrupt jobs for the boys scenario in the EU, but it still wasn't a job for life, and such patronage can be tackled (albeit remotely) when elections happen, and commissioners changed. The patronage in the UK is that somebody can be awarded a gig in the House of Lords for life.
EU reform is surely irrelevant anyway as the vote has happened and brexit won, more pressing situations need resolving, like the 310 mile land border on the island of Ireland.

 

[butchersapron]

That's your response to the the selmayr corruption? Jesus fucking christ.

 

[philosophical]

That's your response to the the selmayr corruption? Jesus fucking christ.

Yes it is because the UK has voted out, from Selmayr, Junker, Tusk and everybody else, so it isn't a pressing issue for me and because the systems everywhere are susceptible to corruption, because the corruption and patronage in the UK is in my view worse (as a consequence of the brexit vote, and because institutions like the House of Lords and the poor electoral situation are more immediate).
Situations like the Selmayr one are not as pressing as the border brexiters voted to take back control of.

 

[butchersapron]

Jesus fucking christ

 

[butchersapron]

I can imagine you well being on the case should remain have won of course. We could have rested safe at night.