Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[teqniq]

philosophical

Fascism has evolved into the alt-right but it is still fascism.

 

[andysays]

I'm lost for words at this point. Truly.

TBH, I'm baffled by why so many people have wasted so much time on this buffoon.

They have nothing to contribute to this or any other thread, a fact which has been glaringly obvious from their very first post.

 

[agricola]

philosophical

Fascism has evolved into the alt-right but it is still fascism.

Whoever would have thought that a bunch of rods bound together, signifying the ability of the holder to beat others into submission, would ever be associated with radical authoritarian nationalism?

 

[kabbes]

Rubbish. the use of terms is organic, and a poster above linked to such a discussion regarding fascism.
65 years ago the term 'bitch' wasn't the shocking insult it is today, and 'gay' simply meant happy. Things change and evolve, they are not defined by a moment in time pinned to the internet by wikipedia, or by something like the Victorians trying to set in stone the rules of the use of language.
Your constant snide digs at me based on your self perceived superior knowledge is tiresomely pompous.

Please do link to some established recent practice of fascism merely being synonymous with nationalism.

Still waiting for that contemporary source showing that fascism is now simply synonymous with nationalism. No, your reckons don't count for this.

This is quite incredible.

Do you or do you not agree that fascism is defined as radical authoritarian nationalism?

 

[philosophical]

Try googling 'nationalism and fascism' and then fill your boots.

 

[teuchter]

Looking back, I can see the ambiguity in what I wrote compared with what I was trying to convey, and my apologies for that. I'm trying to say firstly that the decision to get rid of a commissioner does not come through common vote. Once in place, they cannot be removed during their term. And secondly, yes, a government can choose not to return them, but the decision making behind that process is way more opaque than a straightforward popular mandate. A commissioner is not a party political animal.

On your final sentence: I would say that the entire commission can be ousted by a vote of no confidence is really neither here nor there, since the constitutional crisis that this would create and the conditions necessary for it to come about would be so extreme that the process is not something that speaks to the everyday democracy of the EU.

Your wording didn't seem very ambiguous to me.

See my edit. A vote of no confidence took place in 2014.

I don't really see that the process to get rid of a commissioner is particularly less direct then the process, say, to get rid of a UK government minister. That, effectively, can't be forced by "common vote" either. The UK parliament, let alone the electorate, can't vote to get rid of a particular minister, can they?

 

[kabbes]

Your wording didn't seem very ambiguous to me.

See my edit. A vote of no confidence took place in 2014.

I don't really see that the process to get rid of a commissioner is particularly less direct then the process, say, to get rid of a UK government minister. That, effectively, can't be forced by "common vote" either. The UK parliament, let alone the electorate, can't vote to get rid of a particular minister, can they?

I don’t get your point. Are you also arguing that the EU commission is more democratic than the U.K. government or are you just in quibble mode?

 

[kabbes]

Try googling 'nationalism and fascism' and then fill your boots.

Ok, I tried that and it just gave me sources for how they are not the same thing.

Did you actually try your suggestion before suggesting it?

 

[philosophical]

Ok, I tried that and it just gave me sources for how they are not the same thing.

Did you actually try your suggestion before suggesting it?

Good for you for trying, I did too and had a cursory read of some articles and came across a concept I am less familiar with called 'futurism' which appears to be an allied idea. Reminded me in some ways of those socialist concepts of building a better state sometime on the future, or 'five year plans' or 'great leaps forward' or even 'jam tomorrow'.
Maybe that is what brexit will morph into, jam tomorrow but tomorrow never comes.

 

[teuchter]

I don’t get your point. Are you also arguing that the EU commission is more democratic than the U.K. government or are you just in quibble mode?

I wouldn't try to argue that, no. However, there's an ongoing idea that the EU is fundamentally undemocratic. I have to say that this has prompted me to find out more about how the EU works, over the past year or so. I can certainly see that there are ways in which its processes can be distant from an electorate that, in the UK at least, doesn't seem all that interested in it (yep, I too couldn't tell you off hand who my MEP is).

At the same time I've seen a lot of things said about the EU in relation to its democratic processes that when I go and look it all up, seem simply not to be true. So when you said

Incredible. So your position -- let me get this right -- is that if I vote for a government and that government then chooses a Commissioner who can never in practice then be deseated, that is somehow more democratic than just voting for a government?

Because you said that the EU is more democratic than the UK. But that is the implication: the people one UK government chose for life are democratically more accountable to me than the the UK government that chose them.

and it seemed that you were rather specifically implying that commissioners are chosen for life and that they can't, in practice, be deseated, that didn't seem to reflect reality, and when I went and checked it out, yes, it does seem to be complete nonsense.

In that sense, yes I am in quibble mode but it seems like quite a big, and reasonable, quibble.

My point in comparing commissioners with UK ministers is that I don't see such a fundamental difference in the processes, whereas it seems you do; it seems that you consider the EU quite deeply undemocratic in its processes given your claims quoted above - which I'm not really clear how they were open to misinterpretation.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Good for you for trying, I did too and had a cursory read of some articles and came across a concept I am less familiar with called 'futurism' which appears to be an allied idea. Reminded me in some ways of those socialist concepts of building a better state sometime on the future, or 'five year plans' or 'great leaps forward' or even 'jam tomorrow'.
Maybe that is what brexit will morph into, jam tomorrow but tomorrow never comes.

So you don't understand futurism either then?

 

[philosophical]

So you don't understand futurism either then?

Does anybody?

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Does anybody?

Yes.

 

[philosophical]

Yes.

Well bully for them?

 

[andysays]

So you don't understand futurism either then?

I'm coming to the conclusion that a list of the things this poster doesn't understand would be a long, long list

 

[philosophical]

I'm coming to the conclusion that a list of the things this poster doesn't understand would be a long, long list

You may be right. There is a very long list of things that I don't understand to the depth that would satisfy others. Although I have a sneaking feeling that those others who wish to stand in judgement and assert some kind of superiority are blagging it.
Possibly it is my misfortune and was the nature of my working life to know a little bit about everything but not a whole lot about anything, that's the way things are. Mind you it serves some purpose because it provides an open door for snide remarks like yours.

 

[butchersapron]

You may be right. There is a very long list of things that I don't understand to the depth that would satisfy others. Although I have a sneaking feeling that those others who wish to stand in judgement and assert some kind of superiority are blagging it.
Possibly it is my misfortune and was the nature of my working life to know a little bit about everything but not a whole lot about anything, that's the way things are. Mind you it serves some purpose because it provides an open door for snide remarks like yours.

You were boasting about your free university education earlier ffs

 

[kabbes]

You may be right. There is a very long list of things that I don't understand to the depth that would satisfy others. Although I have a sneaking feeling that those others who wish to stand in judgement and assert some kind of superiority are blagging it.
Possibly it is my misfortune and was the nature of my working life to know a little bit about everything but not a whole lot about anything, that's the way things are. Mind you it serves some purpose because it provides an open door for snide remarks like yours.

You’re the one wondering about the ignorance of 17 million of your fellow citizens.

 

[philosophical]

You were boasting about your free university education earlier ffs

No I wasn't. I said I felt shame about my free education when now my generation has pulled up the ladder for others.
In what way is that a boast?

 

[butchersapron]

No I wasn't. I said I felt shame about my free education when now my generation has pulled up the ladder for others.
In what way is that a boast?

So you're both playing the poor simple working man and uni educated.

 

[philosophical]

You’re the one wondering about the ignorance of 17 million of your fellow citizens.

Is this something else you're making up, like your saying EU commissioners have jobs for life, or that I said brexiters should be disregarded, or I was rubbishing wikipedia?
Ignorance might be applied to degree of parcels of knowledge, it might also be applied to a persons behaviour, and you making things up to dig somebody out is much more in the domain of ignorance than blue sky thinking.

 

[philosophical]

So you're both playing the poor simple working man and uni educated.

You what?
You have no evidence regarding my education, and I have never said I am a poor simple working man, these are labels you wish to apply to me to help your desire to classify.
'The'
Tsk, surely you can do better than this?

 

[butchersapron]

You what?
You have no evidence regarding my education, and I have never said I am a poor simple working man, these are labels you wish to apply to me to help your desire to classify.
'The'
Tsk, surely you can do better than this?

You have said that you were ashamed at getting a free education when your 'son' was in the first tranche to pay 9 grand tuition fees. A few a posts above you play the simple working man card. It's all there.

I don't need to do any better than this. Not a word forward on anything substantive from you all day.

 

[philosophical]

You have said that you were ashamed at getting a free education when your 'son' was in the first tranche to pay 9 grand tuition fees. A few a posts above you play the simple working man card. It's all there.

I don't need to do any better than this. Not a word forward on anything substantive from you all day.

You really are scraping some kind of barrel and coming up with utter bollocks. There is absolutely no conflict between saying I had a free education, and had a working life (it is you who has added the term 'simple' for some reason).
My comment on a free education was in response to somebody asking if I had voted or was a Liberal, and I said no, nay, never, and cited their duplicity regarding tuition fees compared with the educational benefits I enjoyed. I then went further by complaining that Education is now becoming something that is utilitarian and money related and job related, and to see Education in those terms is an extremely narrow world view.
However you would have had less fun and more difficulty in misrepresenting me if you had included that stuff.
Has it dawned on you yet that a person could have enjoyed the benefit of an education, yet also had a working life as I have? It isn't difficult a concept to grasp, a lot of people do both things.
I suggest you scurry away and try to dream up your next snide comment.

 

[butchersapron]

You really are scraping some kind of barrel and coming up with utter bollocks. There is absolutely no conflict between saying I had a free education, and had a working life (it is you who has added the term 'simple' for some reason).
My comment on a free education was in response to somebody asking if I had voted or was a Liberal, and I said no, nay, never, and cited their duplicity regarding tuition fees compared with the educational benefits I enjoyed. I then went further by complaining that Education is now becoming something that is utilitarian and money related and job related, and to see Education in those terms is an extremely narrow world view.
However you would have had less fun and more difficulty in misrepresenting me if you had included that stuff.
Has it dawned on you yet that a person could have enjoyed the benefit of an education, yet also had a working life as I have? It isn't difficult a concept to grasp, a lot of people do both things.
I suggest you scurry away and try to dream up your next snide comment.

Massive OUTRAGE to avoid offering substantive posts in reply to others. I get it.

 

[kabbes]

You’re the one wondering about the ignorance of 17 million of your fellow citizens.

Is this something else you're making up, like your saying EU commissioners have jobs for life, or that I said brexiters should be disregarded, or I was rubbishing wikipedia?

Good grief, surely you haven’t already forgotten your first post?

Am I right is assuming that everybody who voted brexit is an ignorant racist self serving nationalist brainwashed tosser?

I.e. wondering about the ignorance of 17 million of your fellow citizens.

Ignorance might be applied to degree of parcels of knowledge, it might also be applied to a persons behaviour, and you making things up to dig somebody out is much more in the domain of ignorance than blue sky thinking.

Is this you now admitting you were wrong to claim that nationalism and fascism are now considered synonyms and that the thing you told me to look up actually shows the opposite? Because you seemed to avoid that subject earlier, and I just want to make sure we agree that you were totally wrong about that, despite you saying all sorts about me having low IQ whilst also being superior for pointing out your error. I mean, “sorry” would be a more usual apology, but if you simply want to admit to “parcels of ignorance” instead, I guess that’s fine too.

 

[butchersapron]

I mean, it was your 'LUNCH' earlier but you carried on posting non-stop for the next hour.

 

[philosophical]

Massive OUTRAGE to avoid offering substantive posts in reply to others. I get it.

Massive?
I am simply reflecting back to you your own corrupt and snide tendencies, this isn't about me, it is about you floundering around trying to find something to be a dickhead about.

 

[philosophical]

I mean, it was your 'LUNCH' earlier but you carried on posting non-stop for the next hour.

Call the lunch police in then.
Sheesh!

 

[andysays]

You may be right. There is a very long list of things that I don't understand to the depth that would satisfy others. Although I have a sneaking feeling that those others who wish to stand in judgement and assert some kind of superiority are blagging it.
Possibly it is my misfortune and was the nature of my working life to know a little bit about everything but not a whole lot about anything, that's the way things are. Mind you it serves some purpose because it provides an open door for snide remarks like yours.

To be clear, there's nothing wrong with not knowing all about everything. The problem arises when you behave as if you do, which you have done consistently from your very first post, and simultaneously demonstrate that you actually know far less than you think or claim.

You're merely the latest in a succession of no-nothing remain supporters who has apparently swallowed a load of establishment nonsense about Brexit and how ghastly Leave voters are, and is now regurgitating something you haven't ever understood.

I for one won't be wasting any more time on you.