Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[DotCommunist]

I really hate the way various democratic struggles across the continent have been reduced to the largesse of the EU by people who defend it based on historical ignorance.

our state in all its apparatus seems committed to unseeing the labour movement- it never existed, there was just nice Christian reformers and abolitionists, progressive whigs. Don't look at the banners of the days gone by etc

 

[stethoscope]

I see fascism as beginning with a definition of what constitutes a 'state' in the first place, and as such is exclusive to others.

What about a neoliberal superstate called the EU that is exclusive based on its own power structures? How do normal people have any influence or say in their lives within it?

 

[philosophical]

What does "in my view" mean, beyond your uneducated reckons? What is your metric for democracy? Let's read on and find out...

So what? Is this supposed to represent the current practice of the EU institution? Not to mention that Norway is not even part of the EU.

We're back to "in my view", I see. Are you aware that there is no "best" electoral system? Mathematically, all systems have flaws that mean that they can't be objectively ranked. So your preference for proportional representation is ideological, not objective. Personally, I feel better represented by an individual who I know is personally accountable to a local community first and foremost, rather than a list that produces a candidate based on party politics.
This is getting ridiculous now. Are you really arguing that the ultimate exponent of Pork Barrel Politics that is the EU is somehow less prone to money-driven influence and oligarchical decision making than the nation state of the UK? Good grief.
Are you aware that in all of the above, you haven't actually referenced any evidence at all for your vaunted democracy in the EU? You've talked about who got to female franchise first 100 years ago, you've made a reckon about electoral systems and you've made a quite astonishing claim about who is the worst when it comes to corruptible influences. But there's nothing there to demonstrate how EU democracy is actually put into practice.

And this all misses the point entirely, which is that the EU only promotes migration within its own borders, and is happy to let the rest of the world go to hell.

So a person posting their view is invalid now unless it passes some kind of kabbes test?
If you want detail about how actual EU democracy is put into practice, then educate yourself as you urge me to.
I am struck by your term 'nation state', something I think is a theme on here. You say that the UK is a nation state as if that is a) true, b) has meaning and c) contains gravitas.
The UK as I see it is a loose alliance of groups of people who have decided to draw a line in the map, and has current political significance (certainly for brexiters) but for me is an accident of geography and birth.

 

[stethoscope]

The EU in my view has a better and stronger history and current practice of their form of 'democracy' than the UK. Many Scandinavian countries for example had votes for women long before the UK
...

Possibly only Sweden? The UK has a long and proud history through ground-up organising, unions, etc. that has led the way to many worker/employment rights, LGBT rights, women's suffrage, etc. years before the EU. Other EU member countries have done the same, whilst some EU countries are still lagging behind.

When you have a moment @philosophical...

 

[philosophical]

another lie.

How long before you reach my dad is bigger than your dad territory?

 

[philosophical]

if you don't want to be called a cunt, don't start abusing other people and lying about them.

I have not 'started' abusing others, nor lying about them.
I accept that people wish to call me a cunt, but point out the hypocrisy of those same people trying to lecture me about civil discourse.

 

[JimW]

Since only nation states can be EU members, philosophical has just defined us out anyway, big Boris mate you must be.

 

[Pickman's model]

How long before you reach my dad is bigger than your dad territory?

how long before you give me an apology for lying about me and auld boris johnson?

 

[Pickman's model]

Since only nation states can be EU members, philosophical has just defined us out anyway, big Boris mate you must be.

a mate of the blond beast

 

[philosophical]

and how do you know such people? please post the basis of your knowledge.

you made it up, didn't you.

My assertion is based on the reality that Boris Johnson and brexiters voted the same way.
I know it is a bit of a stretch for all 17plus million voters to all be mates with Boris, but I have my suspicions on this one, and have come to the conclusion based on the vote, that brexit voters are indeed mates with Boris.
Now if you didn't vote brexit then I humbly apologise, you don't need to forgive me, I would be totally wrong.
You could even have a free hit (or whack if you prefer) if you didn't vote brexit like Boris.

 

[stethoscope]

Your politics can't really be this simplistic can it?!

 

[DotCommunist]

I live in a town, which seems to be an important unit of definition for some but I prefer to think of it as a loose collection of hamlets that emerged from the industrial revolution into a larger polity. Indeed, defining what a town is seems akin to fascism imo

 

[teuchter]

Since only nation states can be EU members,

Who says?

 

[Pickman's model]

Who says?

er the eu

 

[littlebabyjesus]

tbf every Scandinavian country had universal women's suffrage before the UK.

 

[philosophical]

Well, at least we know where your politics lie.

'We' is about everybody, the people, organising themselves for the common social good, shared ownership and means of production. Not business, capitalist structures and institutions. Not sure why you persist in carrying on with this 'allusions to Tory' stuff which doesn't even exist with the people you're arguing?

I am afraid your definition contains further questions.
I will try to list them. Who constitutes 'the people' are there any exclusions?
What is the 'common social good'? Is that a matter for agreement, would any discussion be time limited, and how would that agreement (if that is what you mean) come to a final conclusion.
Shared ownership? Like with absolutely anybody from anywhere, or those who created it (collectively if you like) be the ones to distribute the ownership? To the exclusion of others?

 

[teuchter]

er the eu

Where is this requirement stated?

 

[Pickman's model]

Where is this requirement stated?

on the application form and on this website

 

[butchersapron]

tbf every Scandinavian country had universal women's suffrage before the UK.

QED the EU is more democratic than the UK.

 

[teuchter]

on the application form

How did Belgium get in?

 

[Pickman's model]

How did Belgium get in?

founder member innit

 

[philosophical]

What about a neoliberal superstate called the EU that is exclusive based on its own power structures? How do normal people have any influence or say in their lives within it?

It is not at all ideal, but I prefer it as an expanded system than one that is narrow and parochial and open to abuse. However I might be tempted to change my mind if the offer was freedom for Lewisham.

 

[JimW]

Where is this requirement stated?

maastricht treaty and Copenhagen criteria

 

[Pickman's model]

maastricht treaty and Copenhagen criteria

and the aforementioned application form.

 

[stethoscope]

on the application form and on this website

*shudders*

• a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces in the EU;
• the ability to take on and implement effectively the obligations of membership, including adherence to the aims of political, economic and monetary union.

 

[teuchter]

founder member innit

What about Bosnia and Herzegovina?

Bosnia and Herzegovina - European Neighbourhood Policy And Enlargement Negotiations - European Commission

 

[teuchter]

this website

Can't see anything about nation states there.

 

[butchersapron]

*shudders*

a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces in the EU;
the ability to take on and implement effectively the obligations of membership, including adherence to the aims of political, economic and monetary union

Note the above has to be written into national constitutions for new members as well.

 

[Pickman's model]

What about Bosnia and Herzegovina?

Bosnia and Herzegovina - European Neighbourhood Policy And Enlargement Negotiations - European Commission

what about them?

 

[Pickman's model]

Can't see anything about nation states there.

never mind.