Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[kabbes]

You can interpret that as shouty crap, I say it is an honest personal response.

And, whatever way you wish to dice it, an offensive one. You literally go on the offensive, hating people you have never met with no consideration for any context whatsoever.

 

[DotCommunist]

was it two or three times they had to vote on lisbon before the right answer came?

 

[Pickman's model]

was it two or three times they had to vote on lisbon before the right answer came?

i don't know, i lost count.

 

[kabbes]

was it two or three times they had to vote on lisbon before the right answer came?

Democracy in action.

 

[DotCommunist]

'Jean-Pierre Jouyet, the French Europe Minister, said, ‘The most important thing is that the ratification process must continue in the other countries and then we shall see with the Irish what type of legal arrangement could be found’ Nikola Sarkozy, said it the Irish would simply be ignored. The Irish were told to vote again'

 

[stethoscope]

Ireland is part of the EU. The EU is not a separate thing. Ireland can choose not to be part of the EU, if it wants, like we have.

It's part of a series of questions put forward to @philosophical based on previous posts, not for you to pick one out and answer it individually.

 

[philosophical]

A more obvious approach would have been to:
1) Spend some time reading this and other threads first to get a feel for the posters here and their politics;
2) Having discovered a reasonable number of left and far left posters here have voted left leave, try and read and appreciate some of the argument put forward for such - even if you don't agree with them;
3) Engage based on that with a non-prejudiced, non-loaded question, which might be on the lines of...

'I've spent some time reading some of the posts here, especially those that voted brexit but appear to be on the left, but I'm still struggling with the arguments... how that doesn't just end up emboldening the right..., etc.

So, please stop with this disingenuous 'I just asked a question' stuff, because you didn't, and you know you didn't. And its got people's backs up because it smeers them, many of us who have proud anti-capitalist, anti-fascist political histories. Many of us who have been patient for the last two years putting forward sound arguments for leaving the EU from a left perspective.

If you are irritated that my approach was not to dance to the tune you would prefer I acknowledge your discomfort.
You declare that your suggested approach would have been the more obvious one, almost as if you make up the rules here.
You all spend a lot of time telling me my approach was wrong, but the silence towards those who are abusive towards me is kind of deafening, and when there is noise it sounds like hypocrisy. Within moment of posting here I had the 'people like you' response, the 'are you a paedo' response was told to fuck off and called a cunt.
Do you miss the irony in you telling me how to behave, but tacitly approving of, and joining in with the behaviour of others?

 

[teuchter]

The border is 310 miles long with 200 road crossing points, and many others unmarked, with properties that straddle the border.
How do you think those practicalities would be managed if a border with checks were in place?

I don't know exactly how the practicalities would be managed. I'm not a Brexiteer myself so don't feel obliged to think up the solution. However, whatever the solution were, I'd be trying to gauge how the people who actually live in Ireland and who would be affected by it, felt about it, in trying to figure out my opinion on it. I'd hope our Lexiteer friends would be doing the same. Earlier in the thread I felt that the response from some was that this didn't need to be considered because it's not "our" fault that the border question arises.

 

[kabbes]

I still think that Brexit is a net bad idea for the everyday man, because it will fuck things up so much. But people like philosophical basically guarantee that I will vote leave if a second referendum ever comes my way. The EU is really, really shit. Whatever goodness it may once have had has long since been dissolved into an ever more authoritarian and right-wing morass of inequality and promotion of business interests over human ones.

 

[Pickman's model]

If you are irritated that my approach was not to dance to the tune you would prefer I acknowledge your discomfort.
You declare that your suggested approach 'would have been better', almost as if you make up the rules here.
You all spend a lot of time telling me my approach was wrong, but the silence towards those who are abusive towards me is kind of deafening, and when there is noise it sounds like hypocrisy. Within moment of posting here I had the 'people like you' response, the 'are you a paedo' response was told to fuck off and called a cunt.
Do you miss the irony in you telling me how to behave, but tacitly approving of, and joining in with the behaviour of others?

if you don't want to be called a cunt, don't start abusing other people and lying about them.

 

[teuchter]

It's part of a series of questions put forward to @philosophical based on previous posts, not for you to pick one out and answer it individually.

Oh, ok. I'll wait for your permission before commenting on your ever-so-precious words in future.

 

[philosophical]

But to remind you - you were the one who introduced a statement on the causes of the vote.


I and others disagree with you and have made points such as the one you quoted. Now, you don't seem to want to talk about why the vote came about.

As I said I am catching up. But thank you for quoting my original question accurately.

 

[stethoscope]

Oh, ok. I'll wait for your permission before commenting on your ever-so-precious words in future.

Good

 

[teuchter]

But people like philosophical basically guarantee that I will vote leave if a second referendum ever comes my way.

To what extent do you feel that philosophical is a caricature cooked up by those who'd like it to be a true representation of the typical remain voter?

 

[Winot]

Also, NI can choose not be part of the UK, can it not? Isn't that part of the GFA?

Yes

 

[Pickman's model]

To what extent do you feel that philosophical is a caricature cooked up by those who'd like it to be a true representation of the typical remain voter?

to the same extent that i think you are a caricature cooked up by those who'd like you to be a true representation of an anal toilet and dogging obsessive

 

[philosophical]

throughout this exchange you've taken the blinkered point of view that i have threatened you with violence.

i haven't.

i may have responded flippantly, in the post you quote, because the notion anyone could think i was threatening you seemed to me utterly outlandish - it still does.

but don't have the gall to complain about my use of anglo-saxon vernacular when the first one of us to introduce insults into the exchange was you.

now, you claimed boris johnson was my mate and i await an apology.

The first use of anglo saxon stuff was pointed in my direction.
You 'may have responded flippantly' is it now?
Pause to consider what was achieved by what you now call a flippant response going on about other whacks (to my head) being available.
It certainly didn't move any debate on in any kind of positive direction, but came across to me (as I have said repeatedly) as a threat of violence.
In my view those who voted brexit are mates with Boris Johnson and I don't apologise for that at all.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

to the same extent that i think you are a caricature cooked up by those who'd like you to be a true representation of an anal toilet and dogging obsessive

 

[Pickman's model]

In my view those who voted brexit are mates with Boris Johnson and I don't apologise for that at all.

and how do you know such people? please post the basis of your knowledge.

you made it up, didn't you.

 

[philosophical]

Do you not think the Irish should have complete autonomy and rule over themselves? I thought you said were against the British establishment?

OK for the EU to have some control over them though?

Do we need a neoliberal trading bloc ala the EU to co-operate? I'd rather we demolish the EU and build a new European socialist bloc.

It depends on how you define 'the Irish' and 'themselves' and it also depends on the nature of autonomy and rule.
I am not against the concept of socialism at all, but I am concerned by the authoritarianism that frequently seems to come with it. The 'we' in your question has hints to me of Thatcher asking if somebody was 'one of us'. 'You' might demolish anything you want, but to turn a 'you' into a 'we' takes persuasion and agreement because, to use a word you used above, each person is autonomous.

 

[JimW]

Which scandinavian countries didn't have votes for women prior to the existence of the EU? Mad stuff.

 

[stethoscope]

Which scandinavian countries didn't have votes for women prior to the existence of the EU? Mad stuff.

Possibly only Sweden? The UK has a long and proud history through ground-up organising, unions, etc. that has led the way to many worker/employment rights, LGBT rights, women's suffrage, etc. years before the EU. Other EU member countries have done the same, whilst some EU countries are still lagging behind.

 

[Pickman's model]

The first use of anglo saxon stuff was pointed in my direction.
You 'may have responded flippantly' is it now?
Pause to consider what was achieved by what you now call a flippant response going on about other whacks (to my head) being available.
It certainly didn't move any debate on in any kind of positive direction, but came across to me (as I have said repeatedly) as a threat of violence.

right. so you're calling me a liar. i'll have an apology for that, my sweet.

 

[Pickman's model]

and how do you know such people? please post the basis of your knowledge.

you made it up, didn't you.

philosophical don't go all coy on me, post up that apology

 

[Wilf]

The EU form of democracy might have felt remote and unwieldy to many voters, but the Tories and others kept saying that the EU was actually 'undemocratic' which it isn't. It is such a shame that this myth was one of many shovelled out there to persuade people to vote brexit.

Fwiw, I wouldn't regard the EU as particularly democratic, in the formal sense. Members of the EU Parliament are directly elected, but the Parliament has relatively little power and we have no formal influence on the Commission of permanent bureaucracy. But that just isn't the point. EVen if it was 'more' democratic, that wouldn't alter people's experiences of the forces and ideology represented by the EU. In fact if you want to think about the relationship of the EU to formal democracy, think about Syriza's losing battle with the EU. The significant thing there was that austerity was imposed on Greece, against the wishes of the Greek people - but even more so, there was a horror in the upper reaches of the EU when Syriza tried to use 'democracy' - a referendum - against the imposition of further cuts.

 

[JimW]

Possibly only Sweden? The UK has a long and proud history through ground-up organising, unions, etc. that has led the way to many worker/employment rights, LGBT rights, women's suffrage, etc. years before the EU. Other EU countries have done the same, and some EU countries are still lagging behind.

I really hate the way various democratic struggles across the continent have been reduced to the largesse of the EU by people who defend it based on historical ignorance.

 

[Santino]

philosophical don't go all coy on me, post up that apology

This is incredibly boring for everyone else.

 

[stethoscope]

It depends on how you define 'the Irish' and 'themselves' and it also depends on the nature of autonomy and rule.
I am not against the concept of socialism at all, but I am concerned by the authoritarianism that frequently seems to come with it. The 'we' in your question has hints to me of Thatcher asking if somebody was 'one of us'. 'You' might demolish anything you want, but to turn a 'you' into a 'we' takes persuasion and agreement because, to use a word you used above, each person is autonomous.

Well, at least we know where your politics lie.

'We' is about everybody, the people, organising themselves for the common social good, shared ownership and means of production. Not business, capitalist structures and institutions. Not sure why you persist in carrying on with this 'allusions to Tory' stuff which doesn't even exist with the people you're arguing?

 

[philosophical]

No, you said nationalism was akin to fascism. Here it is:



You've still not explained, however, how nationalism -- either that as espoused by Brexit or that by those who seek a united Ireland -- is necessarily radical (i.e. it rejects tradition and seeks to rebuild society based on the development of new ideas) or authoritarian (i.e. it seeks the centralisation of control with no state accountability) in its style, which are both necessary components of fascism. Nor have you explained how it fits in with this necessary component of fascism:



Irish nationalists want a totalitarian one-party state? Brexit voters believe that armed conflict is the appropriate response to economic difficulty? This is just nonsense.

You're doing the classic thing of thinking your small amount of knowledge privileges you to use concepts you think you understand but, in practice, have not actually made any actual study of. So you're throwing around these concepts in the belief they somehow bolster your position, whereas they are actually just making you look like an idiot.

I see fascism as beginning with a definition of what constitutes a 'state' in the first place, and as such is exclusive to others. I see brexit as another version of the powerful wanting to define what a state actually is. If you complain that I have not made enough of a study for your liking then that is up to you, but not having studied something enough to satisfy you does not mean that a point made is not valid.
You seem to say what is 'idiocy' comes from a definition decided by those who promote themselves a superior which is what you are trying to do.
This place seems riddled by rules about what is allowed and what isn't, and when someone is perceived by another person to not be toeing the line they are subject to abuse.
Is that part of the definition of Authoritarianism and control freakery?

 

[butchersapron]

?