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Intersectionality

frogwoman said:
anyway how is being young a privilege, given that young people are more likely to be in part time insecure work or on the dole, and given that the minimum wage is less if you're under 21?
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Yeah it's one of the worst thought out privilege/oppression spokes. I suspect that they would say that there is a chase for youth in society - plastic surgery, hair colouring etc and given the media circles also things like how tv/film drops actresses when they get a little bit old.
iirc over 50s have similar difficulties finding work as under 25s, in terms of average length of stay on JSA or some similar measure - but in economic terms I'd agree that young people are generally worse off than older people and right now that's being extended as many of the things that helped young working class people in the post-war settlement are being removed.
 
BigTom said:
Yeah it's one of the worst thought out privilege/oppression spokes. I suspect that they would say that there is a chase for youth in society - plastic surgery, hair colouring etc and given the media circles also things like how tv/film drops actresses when they get a little bit old.
iirc over 50s have similar difficulties finding work as under 25s, in terms of average length of stay on JSA or some similar measure - but in economic terms I'd agree that young people are generally worse off than older people and right now that's being extended as many of the things that helped young working class people in the post-war settlement are being removed.
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that's just rich old people and celebrities having facelifts tho, it doesn't mean that young people are any better off
 
laurie penny said:
As a person with cis privilege, the worst I have to fear when challenging TERFs are bullying and professional slurs. Not outing. Still hard.
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WTF is cis privilege?

She makes my skin crawl.
 
frogwoman said:
women putting makeup on to make themselves look more attractive must be an act of cultural appropriation as well because they're (a self defining as ugly group, even if they're not) trying to appropriate te characteristics of the non ugly group :hmm:
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auntie toms
 
frogwoman said:
that's just rich old people and celebrities having facelifts tho, it doesn't mean that young people are any better off
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I do agree with you but it goes further than rich people and celebs having facelifts, it's all stuff like anti-wrinkle creams and just-for-men and the like as well. In terms of physical appearance there is I think a general view that younger is better. This is a kind of privilege.
 
would this wheel mean anything in moldova for example, where to be honest the vast majority of "people of colour" living there are probably aid workers from the US/UK and better off than most of the population

and "feminine and female" as a privilege, fuck off, is it not so that many women are written off in terms of better employment etc for being "too girly" and in very patriarchal societies the way to get ahead is to act like a man?

does it say anything about say russians/moldovans (or whatever the group is) being discriminated against at different times and places etc? does it fuck as like

what about irish people, basques etc?

its completely meaningless outside the US
 
BigTom said:
I do agree with you but it goes further than rich people and celebs having facelifts, it's all stuff like anti-wrinkle creams and just-for-men and the like as well. In terms of physical appearance there is I think a general view that younger is better. This is a kind of privilege.
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well yes but i think that's to do with sexism, clint eastwood, tom jones, harrison ford and people like that were still thought of as attractive up int otheir 70s
 
frogwoman said:
well yes but i think that's to do with sexism, clint eastwood, tom jones, harrison ford and people like that were still thought of as attractive up int otheir 70s
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Definitely easier if you're a man, and I think there's more of an "older man" attraction type than an "older woman" one (though the existence of granny porn says it's not unknown)
 
BigTom said:
Definitely easier if you're a man, and I think there's more of an "older man" attraction type than an "older woman" one (though the existence of granny porn says it's not unknown)
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Surely this is exactly what the theory of intersectionality says?! I don't get you lot.
 
8115 said:
I think it means comfortable in skin. Ie not a transgender person.

We had this thread already this year by the way.
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cis isn't an acronym, it's the latin antonym for trans. When people were trying to find a word to sit alongside trans to describe someone born into the right gender, they chose this word, which to me makes perfect sense.
cis privilege is the privilege of not having take take abuse for being trans, whether that is the abuse that comes with wearing drag or being a tomboy or the huge rates of unemployment and suicide that trans people experience plus whatever less definable problems there are of not feeling right, of not fitting into the boxes that society caters for most simply.
 
BigTom said:
cis isn't an acronym, it's the latin antonym for trans. When people were trying to find a word to sit alongside trans to describe someone born into the right gender, they chose this word, which to me makes perfect sense.
cis privilege is the privilege of not having take take abuse for being trans, whether that is the abuse that comes with wearing drag or being a tomboy or the huge rates of unemployment and suicide that trans people experience plus whatever less definable problems there are of not feeling right, of not fitting into the boxes that society caters for most simply.
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this.
 
gawkrodger said:
Do these loons exist outside of London? Can't say I've really come across this rubbish up here
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fucktons of 'em in leeds. introduced me to privilege theory possibly before it was mentioned on here :hmm:
/jumping in on having just read half the second page..
 
frogwoman said:
would this wheel mean anything in moldova for example, where to be honest the vast majority of "people of colour" living there are probably aid workers from the US/UK and better off than most of the population

and "feminine and female" as a privilege, fuck off, is it not so that many women are written off in terms of better employment etc for being "too girly" and in very patriarchal societies the way to get ahead is to act like a man?

does it say anything about say russians/moldovans (or whatever the group is) being discriminated against at different times and places etc? does it fuck as like

what about irish people, basques etc?

its completely meaningless outside the US
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That's in a specific context though, along with masculine and male - it;s the cis/trans spoke isn't it? Just in different wording. There's no cis/trans spoke on that diagram, I guess they are using wider terms when they said "gender deviant", perhaps including stuff like men not supposed to be acting girly so no crying and the like? Women not being tomboys. Not sure what the oppression/privilege is here though, perhaps just those feelings of normality/abnormality.
 
8115 said:
I think it means comfortable in skin. Ie not a transgender person.

We had this thread already this year by the way.
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nope i thought the same about where it came from/what it means (i was wrong about it being an acronym, it's just latin? ). as mentinoed upthread, it means the opposite of transsexual.
 
8115 said:
Surely this is exactly what the theory of intersectionality says?! I don't get you lot.
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That the privilege of being male intersects with the oppression of being old to create something that is of both but is neither? Can do but often as not won't I think. Old man is privileged to be a man but oppressed to be old (assuming we can just accept the young/old privilege/oppression spoke which I don't, it's far too contextual). Old woman is oppressed to be both old and female. Crude intersectionalism won't recognise that being a man is enough to mean that the young/old privilege/oppression spoke is actually removed, not just balanced out - and it's this kind of analysis which is the problem. Old man is oppressed compared to young man - but in the field of attractiveness this isn't really the case.
 
frogwoman said:
also i've said this before isn't it ironic that "anglophones" is one of the spokes but it's entirely meaningless outside of a US/UK context?
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Not really.

The acquisition of English language skills is a substantial lump of social/cultural capital in most of the world. Hence the demand for English medium education. In many countries the elite send their kinda to British or American Schools (either at home or away) for precisely this reason.
 
barney_pig said:
What's the cotton ceiling?
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i've only heard of it in the context/terms of workshops run for trans women to learn how to 'persuade' other women that they really do want to sleep with them. especially if the reason they've been turned down is because of transphobia/trans prejudice. the 'cotton ceiling' to get through is the resistant woman's pants, apparently. http://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/the-cotton-ceiling-really/
(sorry, i know someone else's linked to cotton ceiling stuff earlier - will have a look in a sec
 
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I haven't seen the wheel but I'd assume that it's not universal, although some things about it may be, ie white is nearly (but not always) privileged the world over. So each country, town, culture, situation really, will have its own wheel. Similar to Chomsky's disbelief in e-language and emphasis on i-language.
 
frogwoman said:
i think they should stop trying to reduce everything into this sort of binary thing like it's not either/or ffs
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actually, that is precisely what intersectionality is meant to do. Removing all the false binaries, and realise its a 'network' of oppressions. Which should also do away with any 'hierarchies of oppression', and yet, in reality....
 
8115 said:
I haven't seen the wheel but I'd assume that it's not universal, although some things about it may be, ie white is nearly (but not always) privileged the world over. So each country, town, culture, situation really, will have its own wheel. Similar to Chomsky's disbelief in e-language and emphasis on i-language.
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One! Two! Many wheels of oppression!
 
chilango said:
Not really.

The acquisition of English language skills is a substantial lump of social/cultural capital in most of the world. Hence the demand for English medium education. In many countries the elite send their kinda to British or American Schools (either at home or away) for precisely this reason.
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Yes but it's so specific. I can actually see the whole Anglophone or Lusophone or Francophone privilege in countries in Africa where the majority often don't speak the state official language.

As an aside, is liking posh food a privilege and not liking it an oppression? What if you're a posh bloke at a dinner party and all they have is olives but you don't like them? Is a food preference a privilege or an oppression based on who you are? Like for e.g couscous lovers are privileged if they are from Paris and not Arab but if you are from Tripoli it's an oppression?
 
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