Insurance company CEO assassinated in New York

[Orang Utan]

I doubt it would work in American prisons but he might be hoping for free treatment for his pre-existing condition.

I think it’s free but, of course, shamefully inadequate

 

[Orang Utan]

I'd very much doubt it. Nobody with any sense is seriously going to want this guy to walk free, despite who the victim was.

Shooting people on the streets because you don't like what they do is a bad thing.

I get this.
This incident is gratifying in many ways, but it may only serve to embolden others prepared to use violence against their political enemies. Perhaps this was inevitable though and we should be ‘glad’ that it’s not just the white supremacists who are tooled up and prepared to use violence. What an alarming situation all the same.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Murder is defined as unlawfully and unjustifiably killing a person. It could be argued that the killing was absolutely justified, in order to save the lives of others. It's definitely a defence I'd consider if I was on the jury.

 

[belboid]

Murder is defined as unlawfully and unjustifiably killing a person.

No it isn’t

 

[emanymton]

Murder is defined as unlawfully and unjustifiably killing a person. It could be argued that the killing was absolutely justified, in order to save the lives of others. It's definitely a defence I'd consider if I was on the jury.

It won't save any lives though, the company will carry on as normal and it's actions are legal in any case.

 

[cupid_stunt]

It won't save any lives though, the company will carry on as normal and it's actions are legal in any case.

Spot on, the real problem is the US government allowing such a flawed system to continue.

 

[emanymton]

Spot on, the real problem is the US government allowing such a flawed system to continue.

And that tens of millions keep voting for it because paying hundreds a month is better than paying a lot less for socialism.

 

[Orang Utan]

Murder is defined as unlawfully and unjustifiably killing a person. It could be argued that the killing was absolutely justified, in order to save the lives of others. It's definitely a defence I'd consider if I was on the jury.

Where though.
In the US, this is presumably a first degree murder as it was planned ‘with malice aforethought’ - easy enough to prove in this case. Any justification offered in mitigation might influence the sentencing, but they’d still be guilty of murder

 

[Saul Goodman]

It won't save any lives though, the company will carry on as normal and it's actions are legal in any case.

I didn't say it would save any lives. I said it's a defence I'd consider if I was on the jury. I could quite easily acquit him on those grounds.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Where though.
In the US, this is presumably a first degree murder as it was planned ‘with malice aforethought’ - easy enough to prove in this case. Any justification offered in mitigation might influence the sentencing, but they’d still be guilty of murder

You're only guilty of something if you're found guilty.

 

[Orang Utan]

You're only guilty of something if you're found guilty.

Yes?

 

[Saul Goodman]

Yes?

Yes

 

[Spymaster]

Odd things can happen in the US with the plea bargin system though.

Much lower level but for traffic crimes people can plead guilty to a crime of allowing someone to drive their car unlicensed (or something like that), when it was them driving! But is has lesser penalties than just being convicted of driving without a licence, so they plead guilty instead of going to court.

But I can't see them offering a lower charge in this case as it seems pretty clear.

Yes. With plea bargaining there has to be a reason to do it.

Usually it's to reduce time and legal costs, or because the prosecution isn't certain they'll meet the burden of proof for the higher charge. Occasionally to get a defendant to testify against someone else

None of those apply here. It's a massively high profile case so cost won't be a consideration, nobody else is involved, and there's a shitload of video of him using Thompson as target practice. On top of that, there's going to be huge pressure to make a serious example of him to discourage others from doing similar.

They're going to absolutely throw the fucking book at him!

 

[Orang Utan]

Yes

What are you saying? That a jury would find him not guilty just out of principle? I doubt such a juror would get through screening, certainly not 12 of them

 

[two sheds]

No it isn’t

Killing someone with a gun who's opening fire on a crowd wouldn't be classed as murder. Bit of a stretch in this case though

 

[moochedit]

Seems he went missing after a spinel operation which hints at a motive.

Luigi Mangione ‘went missing’ after surgery say friends of UnitedHealthcare suspect

Man charged with Brian Thompson’s murder was allegedly reported missing by his mother on November 18

www.independent.co.uk

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes. With plea bargaining there has to be a reason to do it.

Usually it's to reduce time and legal costs, or because the prosecution isn't certain they'll meet the burden of proof for the higher charge. Occasionally to get a defendant to testify against someone else

None of those apply here. It's a massively high profile case so cost won't be a consideration, nobody else is involved, and there's a shitload of video of him using Thompson as target practice. On top of that, there's going to be huge pressure to make a serious example of him to discourage others from doing similar.

They're going to absolutely throw the fucking book at him!

Yep. I'll be amazed if he doesn't get a full life sentence.

I don't know the rules re whether terrorism could be invoked to make it a federal crime. Better for him if it can't.

 

[moochedit]

Yep. I'll be amazed if he doesn't get a full life sentence.

I don't know the rules re whether terrorism could be invoked to make it a federal crime. Better for him if it can't.

I don't think new york state has the death penalty but federal law does so a state case would be better for him definatly.

 

[Yossarian]

Where though.
In the US, this is presumably a first degree murder as it was planned ‘with malice aforethought’ - easy enough to prove in this case. Any justification offered in mitigation might influence the sentencing, but they’d still be guilty of murder

He's only been charged with second-degree murder so far - under New York law, a first-degree murder charge would require one of these aggravating factors:



They might be able to make a terrorism allegation stick but not sure how hard prosecutors will push for it, if you're going to gun down a CEO, Manhattan might be one of the better jurisdictions to do so in

 

[skyscraper101]

I just don't get it, when he's one of the nation's most wanted people, after already knowing he must've screwed up by lowering his mask at the hostel, why would be hanging out in a Maccy D's complete with fake IDs and firearms.

At least hide your face, it's like he was caught in the most amateur hour way, after executing his victim like a trained assassin.

 

[belboid]

Killing someone with a gun who's opening fire on a crowd wouldn't be classed as murder. Bit of a stretch in this case though

naah, its the word 'unjustifiably' that is totally irrelevant. Or, if we're being generous, tautological. If it was justifiable, it wouldn't be unlawful and if it is unlawful, it's unjustifiable. Which just brings up back to 'murder is unlawful'

 

[two sheds]

I just don't get it, when he's one of the nation's most wanted people, after already knowing he must've screwed up by lowering his mask at the hostel, why would be hanging out in a Maccy D's complete with fake IDs and firearms.

At least hide your face, it's like he was caught in the most amateur hour way, after executing his victim like a trained assassin.

almost sounds like a statement - he clearly wasn't going anywhere so wasn't planning on hiding out for the rest of his life, particularly if he's in constant pain.

 

[Elpenor]

I reckon he wants the trial as a showcase

 

[two sheds]

yes wouldn't want to be killed in a shootout

 

[Spymaster]

I just don't get it, when he's one of the nation's most wanted people, after already knowing he must've screwed up by lowering his mask at the hostel, why would be hanging out in a Maccy D's complete with fake IDs and firearms.

At least hide your face, it's like he was caught in the most amateur hour way, after executing his victim like a trained assassin.

My speculative theory based on a total lack of knowledge of anything about him, is that he's an intelligent bloke who knew that he had zero chance of getting away with this, so he sat himself in McDonalds for one last Big Mac, and waited for his inevitable arrest.

 

[Orang Utan]

I just don't get it, when he's one of the nation's most wanted people, after already knowing he must've screwed up by lowering his mask at the hostel, why would be hanging out in a Maccy D's complete with fake IDs and firearms.

At least hide your face, it's like he was caught in the most amateur hour way, after executing his victim like a trained assassin.

Some people really love McDonalds and will take absurd risks just to be lovin’ it - they jones for a Maccie D ffs
I can imagine getting caught taking risks to access nice food. It’s how they trap wild animals. I’d probably be happy dangling by my ankle from a rope waiting to be recaptured if I had managed to grab my steak in time


(Iremember the ridiculous queues after maybe the first lockdown just to get a floppy wet burger in a box? It had only been a couple of months!)

 

[Orang Utan]

This only happened the other day:

Tax fraud fugitive caught after ordering kebab to hide-out - BBC News

A tax fugitive who was on the run for nearly three years was caught when he ordered a takeaway.

www.bbc.com

 

[skyscraper101]

My speculative theory based on a total lack of knowledge of anything about him, is that he's an intelligent bloke who knew that he had zero chance of getting away with this, so he sat himself in McDonalds for one last Big Mac, and waited for his inevitable arrest.

It's a solid theory, though I'm not sure I buy that he had zero chance of getting away with it. America is vast, I reckon he could've evaded law enforcement by just bumming around incognito for a few more days, masked up, not carrying anything suss and within a week or so people will have started to forget his face and he could've given the feds the slip.

But I don't know, maybe he did want to be caught. I'm not sure I'd have had the confidence to report that I'd seen someone as generic looking as him. I guess there's a healthy reward though.

 

[flypanam]

Wants his big day in court?

Of course he does, while he’s on trial, the insurance industry is also on trial.

 

[WouldBe]

Killing someone with a gun who's opening fire on a crowd wouldn't be classed as murder. Bit of a stretch in this case though

Are you allowed to shoot robbers.