Industrial music and its relationship(??) to fascism

[butchersapron]

Ok yes Nicky crane was a nazi , yeah there 100 per cent are imbeciles who believe other races are inferior , but so did Che Guevara and nobody talks about that .Death in June writing about the second world war and wearing runes does not necessarily make them Nazis .But if you have a need to believe it that's perfectly fine , I actually have had discussions with band members including Douglas Pearce and he's a complex individual but definitely not a nazi.

You may have mugged yourself pal, but you ain't mugging no one here. Wasting your time.

 

[AverageJoe]

Hang on. Whilst I don't know whether Howl is new or not, he's actually adding some to the conversations and not reacting to much of the vitriol that's been posted.

So,sirely we should give them a chance and then either deconstruct their opinions or let them hoist themselves on their own petard.

Im finding what they are writing interesting.

 

[killer b]

Im finding what they are writing interesting.

It's pretty standard tbh - anywhere you find an article about DiJ on the internet you'll find someone defending Doug P in identical form in the comments section. It's the only defence available.

 

[killer b]

Did anyone else notice that Tony Wakeford has taken a reformed (actually all new apart from him) Crisis back on the road btw?

 

[rekil]

Ok but all I'm saying is if your Anti Semitic would you play Israel ?

From earlier in the thread.

Israeli MP, Yossi Sarid, explained the reason for the ban like this to the Jerusalem Post: "It is clear why Der Blutharsch wants to perform in Israel. They want to be legitimate, have an 'Israeli passport' and then become persona grata everywhere else. Against their critics, they can then say 'Who are you to call us fascists? The survivors of the Holocaust invited us.'"

Apparently was mates with Jorg Haider?!

Says he has put this stuff behind him now (don't they all?).

 

[friedaweed]

It's true im new here

Welcome aboard

 

[redsquirrel]

....he's a complex individual but definitely not a nazi.

Ahh these complex individuals, with their complex ideas too complex for most to understand.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Did anyone else notice that Tony Wakeford has taken a reformed (actually all new apart from him) Crisis back on the road btw?

Yes I know someone who is playing with them - they are pretty clueless tbh and we had a short very awkward conversation about it. (Look at me with my showbiz friends! I also met Douglas P and Patrick Leagas in the 1990s before Howl was born!).

At the same time as he's touring under the Crisis banner, Wakeford has also worked with a Russian label to release the NF-era LP he did - the one he denied he was involved with and then was ashamed of having made. This time it is apparently being done as a benefit for various worthy causes - including an animal rights charity and Southall Black Sisters. Except when I contacted SBS about this, they didn't know anything about it. So he is as dishonest as ever.

 

[chilango]

I'm okay with Howl sticking around and posting their "arguments" for the time being. They'll have to up their game considerably though if they're going to contribute anything not already long dealt with by the more knowledgeable posters on here.

 

[butchersapron]

Well something beyond a) they're not b) and if they are so is someone who i think you lefties love...che guevara. c) massive historical mistakes about the actual nazis - i.e Rohm being murdered for being gay

 

[chilango]

Well something beyond a) they're not b) and if they are so is someone who i think you lefties love...che guevara. c) massive historical mistakes about the actual nazis - i.e Rohm being murdered for being gay

Indeed. But when I think of some of the shite I used to post when I was "young and enthusiastic" I feel duty bound to allow people a chance to wise up.

 

[butchersapron]

Do young people really listen to deadcats? I'm not so sure.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

It's actually quite heartening that a more complex defence of this stuff hasn't emerged.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

As the old fanboy arguments are back, it must also be time to revive the old pisstakes of them:

Heiligen Hymne der Sündenbock

Recently there has been much slanderous talk about the political leanings of various members of Pure Blood SS, particularly following the...

englishmanintx.blogspot.com

Recently there has been much slanderous talk about the political leanings of various members of Pure Blood SS, particularly following the release of the album Songs of Celebration Sung at the Funerals of Ethnic Minorities. Indeed, the scandal-mongering Bum the Nazis website suggested a racial agenda might inform such songs as Cleanse This World and White Roses. This is of course nonsense typical of those who see no irony in pointing accusatory fingers at artists such as ourselves whilst claiming to be proponents of free speech; but still the clamour of voices continues, and so we happily address the accusations...

 

[Howl]

Yes I know someone who is playing with them - they are pretty clueless tbh and we had a short very awkward conversation about it. (Look at me with my showbiz friends! I also met Douglas P and Patrick Leagas in the 1990s before Howl was born!).

At the same time as he's touring under the Crisis banner, Wakeford has also worked with a Russian label to release the NF-era LP he did - the one he denied he was involved with and then was ashamed of having made. This time it is apparently being done as a benefit for various worthy causes - including an animal rights charity and Southall Black Sisters. Except when I contacted SBS about this, they didn't know anything about it. So he is as dishonest as ever.

I also met them in the 90's but accept that you think im younger than I am as a compliment .Tony may of had that past but it certainly isn't his present .Also crisis were always a left wing band and formed before DIJ And anyway if you really don't like these people why write essays about them ?

 

[Howl]

I'm okay with Howl sticking around and posting their "arguments" for the time being. They'll have to up their game considerably though if they're going to contribute anything not already long dealt with by the more knowledgeable posters on here.

The more knowledgable? I know ALL the people your writing about personally how much more knowledge could you know than me ? It's like you saying " I was mates with Bob Dylan " and me having only read about them saying but I know more than you about him ! Cmon this is silly.

 

[butchersapron]

You're not exactly establishing that you're capable of taking any sort of objective view here are you? You're actually arguing that you're not in fact.

How were the hot dogs btw?

 

[Howl]

Do young people really listen to deadcats? I'm not so sure.

At the concerts they're were always a mix of ages from what I saw.Ask the hip hop group Flatbush zombies who asked to collaborate with them and who are in their late twenties .But yeah ...no young people like Deadcuts ..

 

[Howl]

Anyway let's change tactics cos everyone's got differing opinions . Is there abyone here who likes the first ministry record? It's very synth pop and although slightly cheesy it's a masterpiece -anyone's thoughts on the album ?

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Yes let’s just change the subject now you’ve waltzed in and made an arse of yourself. FFS.

 

[chilango]

The more knowledgable? I know ALL the people your writing about personally how much more knowledge could you know than me ? It's like you saying " I was mates with Bob Dylan " and me having only read about them saying but I know more than you about him ! Cmon this is silly.

The benefit of the doubt will only last so long you know.

 

[sunnysidedown]

Tony may of had that past but it certainly isn't his present .

Did he finally get himself a bog brush to clean all the skid marks off his toilet?

 

[killer b]

Anyway let's change tactics cos everyone's got differing opinions . Is there abyone here who likes the first ministry record? It's very synth pop and although slightly cheesy it's a masterpiece -anyone's thoughts on the album ?

this is the industrial music & fascism thread - this is the thread to chat about the ministry

 

[Howl]

Yes let’s just change the subject now you’ve waltzed in and made an arse of yourself. FFS.

An arse of myself for correcting everyone who read an article and decided DIJ are nazis , you really need them to be Nazis so badly that even when somebody who actually knows them says it's not true you are still desperate to believe it .And then when corrected you don't debate you just throw petty insults .But y'know ... Believe what you need to get you through the day -so you can wave at your neighbours and say " I'm such a good person ".

 

[Howl]

Did he finally get himself a bog brush to clean all the skid marks off his toilet?

youll have to ask him .

 

[Howl]

this is the industrial music & fascism thread - this is the thread to chat about the ministry

Yes sir - spoken like a true dictator - by the way ..Check before you write as your post makes zero sense .

 

[Howl]

You're not exactly establishing that you're capable of taking any sort of objective view here are you? You're actually arguing that you're not in fact.

How were the hot dogs btw?

Umm yeah what do I know ...I only know the people your making false allegations about .

 

[Howl]

The benefit of the doubt will only last so long you know.

you're missing the point. the fascist music business (eg blood and honour) makes a considerable amount of money in comparison to the income of most other far-right groups. the income from blood and honour was the major factor in combat 18's takeover of the organisation in the early 1990s.

of course it's not like racist skinheads are going to take over the country. it won't be the likes of westen or darby out of 'sons of anarchy': it will be people like ethan zobel.

and the money behind them will in part come from the fascist music scene - blood and honour financed the formation of the bnp's 'excalibur' through the donation of cds.

ian stuart donaldson is said have pointed out that people will generally read a political tract the once, but listen to a song a thousand times. and, if he said it, he has a fair point.

The above individuals and organisations have zero to do with DIJ or industrial bands.

 

[Howl]

I was reading a very interesting website last night (www.whomakesthenazis.com) which claimed among other things that some neo-nazis were deeply involved the industrial music scene and the punk scene as well as other subcultures, but also that a lot of the bands that are in that scene have been openly or covertyl fascist, and that their aim in producing a lot of their music was to infiltrate those ideas into the industrial culture.

I'm not sure about this being a massive fan of industrial music myself, but I will say that several bands do use fascist iconography and lyrics with certain messages in them, album covers, etc, which could be interpreted as being a bit dodgy (these tends not to be the ones I listen to).

But some of them, like Laibach etc, are just doing it to shock and many are actually socialists or anarchists, and it often becomes clear if you listen to the lyrics in more depth. Some of them make music about the second world war, but from a standpoint of being opposed to it.
But nonetheless there does seem to be a few fans who seem quite attracted to the ideas of the far right because of the music's whole "image" and I know a few people who are put off listening to it for that reason. But what Im wondering is to what extent there is anything more than that, and how this whole thing came about tbh.

Im sorry if this is too deep a thread for the music forum but as I said I was reading this website last night and was interested to see what people thought about it.

Who makes the nazis is one of the most hysterical and dumbest articles ever written.

 

[Howl]

what, the fascist music scene? death in june, mentioned in the post to which i was responding, are definitely dodgy.

The benefit of the doubt will only last so long you know.